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| Author | % damage to neutral creatures vs. additional attack parameters |
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I'm wondering how to compare the % damage to neutral creatures you get by putting on some hunter arts, versus using other arts that have extra attack.
For example, equipping 6 BB arts gives 36% damage to neutral creatures, if one of them is replaced with an art that gives 3 extra attack parameters (overall), but it reduces the % damage to neutral creatures to 30%. | It all depends on your attack and the enemy defence.
E.g. against an angel hunt (with high defence) it will give a different result than in a farmer hunt (with really low defence).
You can very easily draw a graph in excel, matlab or any other program to see it yourself | With 3 extra attack will bost 15% attack, but will be reduced by target total defence, so the higher defence worse, lower better.
+6% from artefacts, will increase final output damage.
Who's better?...
I'll make some graphics about theorycal damages...
With common arts:
100 units on stack of hobgoblins with 2-2 damage, with a total of 30 attack attacking a target with 20 defence, we've a total damage of 300.
100 units on stack of hobgoblins with 2-2 damage, with a total of 27 attack plus +6% from BB artefatcs, attacking a target with 20 defence, we've a total of 286,2 damage (rounded down I supposed)
So in this particular case, the extra 3 attack will become better, but more tests is needed for a final veredict, but yeah 15% looks better than 6%, the difference is, those 15% could be reduced before final damage, and those 6% will increase the final damage, so like sven said before, lower defence better higher defence worse. | Damage = N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100]
to find the spot where it becomes equal:
1.30 * N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A+3-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100] = 1.36* N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100]
we can reduce this to
1.30*(1+0.05*(A+3-D)) = 1.36*(1+0.05*(A-D))
1.30*(1.15+0.05*(A-D)) = 1.36*(1+0.05*(A-D))
1.30*1.15+1.30*0.05*(A-D) = 1.36*1+1.36*0.05*(A-D)
1.30*1.15-1.36 = 1.36*0.05*(A-D)-1.30*0.05*(A-D)
0.135 = 0.003*(A-D)
A-D = 45
so if attack is higher than defence + 45, the +6% extra damage is a bigger advantage than the +3 attack. | Damage = N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100]
to find the spot where it becomes equal:
1.30 * N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A+3-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100] = 1.36* N * RND(min, max) * [1 + 0.05 (A-D) ] * [1 - 3*Y/100]
we can reduce this to
1.30*(1+0.05*(A+3-D)) = 1.36*(1+0.05*(A-D))
1.30*(1.15+0.05*(A-D)) = 1.36*(1+0.05*(A-D))
1.30*1.15+1.30*0.05*(A-D) = 1.36*1+1.36*0.05*(A-D)
1.30*1.15-1.36 = 1.36*0.05*(A-D)-1.30*0.05*(A-D)
0.135 = 0.003*(A-D)
A-D = 45
I feel like being in math class again.. Now I see why I hated it..
How long did it take to write that all down? :o
Or do you just know it all..?
Sven is always right. | A-D = 45
so if attack is higher than defense + 45, the +6% extra damage is a bigger advantage than the +3 attack.
Very well explained, Sven, Thank you!
Since attack parameters determine damage based on target defense, and % damage to neutrals is applied to resulting damage, where do enchants fit into the picture? taking a 10% water damage for example, is it applied before or after the % damage to neutrals is calculated? or are they totally separate, meaning they both are calculated from the resulting damage, and then simply added?
To further complicate the scenario, how does a 10% ignore defense fit in? does it impact the original calculated attack from the difference between attack parameters for the attacker and the defense parameters of the defender? | extra water damage does not affect the result, since it is just a multiplier you put in front of the equation on both sides,
1.1*1.30*(1+0.05*(A+3-D)) = 1.1*1.36*(1+0.05*(A-D))
but keep in mind that the 45 difference in attack and defence is only for if you go from 5 to 6 artifacts in the beastbane set.
from 6 to 7 you have to compare 1.36 and 1.42 as modifiers, so the 4th line becomes
1.36*1.15-1.42 = 1.42*0.05*(A-D)-1.36*0.05*(A-D)
(A-D) = (1.36*1.15-1.42)/0.003 = 48
Where the factors 1.15 and 0.003 are constant.
from 7 to 8 it then becomes
(A-D) = (1.42*1.15-1.48)/0.003 = 51
and from 8 to 9 is not really possible to calculate, since the +1 to min/max damage will have a much bigger impact if previous min-max was 1-1 (then it literally doubles the damage) but will have much less effect if it is 20-30 for example.
Also other thing like the ignore enemy defence % enchant will change the formula a bit. But talents like offense, cold blade, retribution etc, they are simple multipliers that have no effect either.
I am not 100% sure how enchantments work, but i always assumed that e.g. a 10% ignore enemy defence, makes their defence 10% lower. So if an enemy has 100 defence, the game will calculate as if it has 90 defence. But i do not know if the defence can be a non-integer. E.g. if enemy has 25 defence, with a 10% reduction, will it become 22 or 23?
But the formula would then become
1.30*(1+0.05*(A+3-0.90*D)) = 1.36*(1+0.05*(A-0.90*D))
which then follows the exact same steps as in 5, which results in
(A-0.90*D)=45
which you cant write into A-D = ...
(well, you can; A-D = 45 - 0.10*D But that does not help at all :P) | | *E.g. if enemy has 25 defence, with a 10% reduction, will it become 22, 22.5 or 23? | | I believe the defence is rounded down, so become 22 in this particular case. | | [Post deleted by moderator Lord hpsim // off topic] | Everyone does. If it makes you fell better I already read somewhere the system of this game is rounded down, also most of games use this enginer of programing.
Yes could be wrong, but the probability is more likely to be right than wrong. | | closed by Theatre Of Pain (2013-10-08 19:20:52) |
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