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| Author | Stun |
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Whenever my guardians stun, I observe, that the damage dealt is towards the minimum.
For eg. if the estimated damage is 350-700, and if stun triggers on the hit, damage dealt is generally near 350.
So, is it just my luck that my stun deals less damage? Or does it happen to everyone? Do triggering abilities reduce damage? | | Same with Knock back and Paw knock in what I have observed | Do triggering abilities reduce damage?
No, just a coincidence | | Nothing which is specified somewhere. | for speed_dragon:
happened many times for me too.
its just bad luck :( | | yep... happens alot with me too... whenever my orcs knock or ogres knock! also observed during fear attack , however there is no such reduction mentioned in official rules. | hmm... i dont feel the stun was less triggered when max dmg come in :P
why did my guardians [with full buffed] always deliver max dmg when stun triggered?
look on your unit damage gap; you was just no luck for that :P | In Fact, Pang must be right (Of course)
But just like you all face, I have face the same in every fight
My Ogres never do above minimal (or around) when doing knock-back
Stun do the same, (No idea as i don't have any fear attack units) | yep... happens alot with me too... whenever my orcs knock or ogres knock! also observed during fear attack , however there is no such reduction mentioned in official rules.
happen always with me too | Ok, I would like to first point out that given the official formula we have, abilities that is calculated after the attack should even be the opposite of what is describe here:
Max dmg immediately means that after the attack the chance to trigger is higher (it widens the hp gap more (or closes the gap more if the attacker has less total hp))
So this shouldn't be true for these abilities (calculated after the attack) at the very least. Unless we want to oppose the given formula itself(, by claiming that it's outdated, perhaps. But I wouldn't go so far as that and it also seems rather ad hoc)
These abilities include ogre's knockback, and hell horse's fear (among others) as mentioned here.
Now the original claim is targeted at stun, an ability that is calculated before the attack. Orc's knocking shot is also in this category. The previous reasoning does not apply.
Thus I do believe that the claim is a perfectly valid point to make, regardless of likelihood. I do, however, question the observations, as information to this effect has not been specified officially anywhere as mentioned before (#4,6)
It's a completely different level when we group the 2 (abilities calculating before and after) together (#2,6,8,9).
(The claim that min dmg triggers more stun, knockback, fear, etc. (not just stun or knocking shot))
This is a stronger, and less likely claim than the original as this now contradicts the reason I first pointed out.
Here, I question the claim itself and therefore doubt the observations that lead to it.
This is why it seems to me that some of these replies are making new claim in disguise even though they, prima facie, seems to be supporting the same thing.
Even if we go back to the original claim (with respect to stun only, and knocking shot too if you want), I still don't think that getting min dmg makes the stun trigger more often, unless you think that the observation is conclusive enough.
A default stance we should take is that of no perceived correlation. (#3,7) | | LOL.can somebody explain in more simple way.?because i cannnot understand statement 10.=) | Near the bottom of this page https://www.lordswm.com/help.php?section=32 is the formula for Triggering special abilities (like stun, knockback, and fear attack)
It uses the total hp of attacking stack, and defending stack to calculate the chance to trigger
In general, the lower the hp of your target, the more chance of you stunning/knocking, etc.
But for some abilities like knockback (also listed on that page), this chance is actually calculated >> after << the attack is made
For example, you have 10 ogres, that is 500 hp
if you hit 30 wolf rider (300 hp) and deal 100 damage
instead of using 500 for ogre and 300 for wolf rider in the formula (giving 30% chance to knock), it will use 500 and (300-100= )200 (32.5% chance to knock)
The target is attacked before the chance is calculated, so higher damage = lower target hp = more chance to knock that wolf.
This means if your ogre get to deal 100 damage instead of 50, you actually get more chance to knock
Which is the opposite of what this thread is about (getting more trigger around lower damage)
But this only applies to abilities that is calculated after the attack is made
So I said that speed_dragon has made a perfectly valid point as guardian's stun chance is calculated >> before << the attack is made.
But then that also means no matter how much damage your guardian will deal, it won't change the % you get from the formula like how ogre did.
The formula on that page will give your guardian the same number if he deals 1 damage or 1000 damage to the target. | | LOL.can somebody explain in more simple way.?because i cannnot understand statement 10.=) He says he thinks they are wrong. (I think). | I think, what Sylin means is, that
For damage dealt after stun triggers, (although it is near the miniumum) there is no formula or postulate to support that it reduces average damage.
But for abilities like fear attack, which are triggered after the damage, more damage means more chance of triggering the ability. Therefore less damage in those abilities is opposing the formula (somewhat)
for Sylin:
Correct? :p | for Sylin:
thx for the detail explaination.i finally understand that part.stare at the post 10 quite along time.X)
for DEATHisNEAR:
nope.i dont think is wrong.just do not understand.=)
for speed_dragon:
good conclusion. crstal clear.=) | #14
First bit about stun: Yes, precisely so!
"Observations" should not be used in place of "impressions"
Second bit about fear:
more dmg -> higher chance
less dmg -> lower chance
These do not oppose the formula, they are consequences of the formula.
What they are opposing is the claim that we get more trigger on lower damage.
Sorry if I am making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
I just want to point out (all in #10) what these reinforced claims actually amount to.
>> It's fine to ask whether the claim holds for stun (calculated before damage dealt).
This is what the thread is originally about, and it doesn't oppose any known formula.
But there's no reason to postulate it, as already implied from #3 and 4.
>> It's not fine to say the claim holds for knockback, fear, etc. (calculated after damage dealt)
As this would directly opposes the formula, unless you want to say that it's wrong.
This whole thread can be cut down to #1,3,4 and 7. The first 2 paragraphs in #10 explains why the cut can be done. |
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