Forums-->General game forum-->
1|2|3|4|5|6
| Author | Magic appears weak |
|---|
So after playing 6 months getting to CL as wizard mainly and having played a DE caster a littly at CL 7 I must say magic is relatively weak compared to might builds.
The only faction which I see running often enough to be not an exception as a full spellpower build is wizard, and from my impression its only because of the bonus damage in Hunts and Merc Quests and because the untis suck for damage.
Magi have some damage potential but they die easily and are exhausted of mana and shoots fast. So they are more a first strike unit than anything.
You get Sphynx Guardians at level 11 but so few that they do not play a large role really.
Even with my bonus damage in hunts I noticed many times while doing hunt helps that for example Dark Elves, Elves and Barbarians are able to dish out much more damage than I could.
I could survive longer but only because of Gargoyles, Elves and Barbarians lack such a mobile defensive unit. This has nothing to do with magic though.
Checking the top 100 I have noticed maybe 2-3 magic builds and all were wizard of course. Purely speaking from talents and faction skills DE appear to be better casters than wizards actually thanks to Pierce Magic and Elemental Call.
Still seeing how Shrews dish out damage plentyfull and even more when paired with Lizard Assailants I can understand why most do not want to play Caster builds with DE.
Most other factions have such high potential in damage too. Barabarians with Orc Chieftains and Wolf raiders.
Elves with EFK and GBM. Necros with Apparitions and Counts.
Why is this so? In my opinion the reason is either because the hero is simply too slow even with Expert Sorcery compared to most units and the rest of the wizard
Imagine wizards lacking the bonus damage in hunts and merc quests. They would totally suck and nearly no one would play them I am sure of.
While most other faction skills are close to be 1 to 1 copies from the computer games, Wizards got a totally arbitrary and unlogical racial skill. Why is this? Speaking purely from 'logic' there is no reason why my spells are that much more potent when there is no other hero around.
But seeing how I do perform if I imagine how many units would die without the bonus wizards would utterly suck. Really and totally suck.
Even in PvP they aren't the strongest factions. I would not say that they are weak but at levels before 8 they can be easily countered for example by a cloak of air resistance.
Another is that some Wizard untis suck horribly even more so than some bad units of others. Golems in particular and Gremlins as well are simply horibble in every regard they have no real strengths.
I have tried to run with Max Golems for a week now and I do not notice that I deal more damage noticably. It is no real difference except that golems are worse in everything but damage compared to Gargoyles and that difference is too small to make up for it.
They are simply too slow, too weak and their initiative is atrocious. You neither have a lot of them, nor do they have particular good attack/defence to make up for their slow movment. As DE I could recruit about as many Minos as I could recruit Golems, and Minos have about 30% more hitpoints and even deal more damage and they have 3 morale as base and they move faster and they are a tier 3 creature as well.
I know that there is a golem upgrade at level 10 which makes them significantly better. The unlimited retaliation being the most important change but still.
The other bonuses are questionable. There are too few caster around and most do use Magic Punch, so the magic resistance is quite a weak bonus. The immunity to delay is also not a really helpful bonus since they are so slow that casting delay on them is actually a waste anyway most of the time.
Unlimited Retaliation can be countered by no retaliation units and shooters quite easily though.
Sure Griffns have it too, but thanks to their massive initiative and good damage they can actually | hey dude,
it's because wizzards are the weakest faction that it is great to play with them. Each win is a miracle ; )
You have to use your mind each turn and not just step forward to attack with your strongest unit.
And don't forget one thing, you're not alone in this game. Sure, wizz sucks in one on one pvp battles (except against knights) but if you play with friends or clans or whatever but not alone, they are really usefull.
I hope you will still follow the wizz path. | Oh I wrote too much and the last part is cut off.
I'll make a second post with the rest.
Sure Griffins have it too, but thanks to their massvive initiative and good damage they can actually make some use of it.
What should change imho?
For one the damage bonus in hunts should go. It's all which saves wizards from a totally sucky faction and it is a totally artificial bonus which doesn't make any sense.
Instead give wizards the ability to consume artifacts like you could in HOMM 5 for mana recovery and spellpower. This should also spice up wizard gameplay a bit.
Change Spell Reflection so that it always reflects spells at 20% effectivity and always reflects onto enemy stacks. If need be improve its cost.
It's not even filler talent anymore since sorcery talents cost the same and provide much better boni.
Improve Golems and Gremlins. Gremlins are worthless even upgraded and golems are atrocious without the upgrade and okish with it.
Maybe increase creature count or improve stats a bit of them, whatever.
Improve heros initiative a bit somehow. Maybe with talents, maybe with faction level, artifacts or whatever. Even with Sorcery until a caster can cast a decent amount of damage any fast heavy hitting damage unit will dish out vastly more damage by the time the caster dish out and few wizard creatures have any real damage potential especially as caster built with maybe 6-10 attack. | | [Post deleted by moderator Pang // ] | The only faction which I see running often enough to be not an exception as a full spellpower build is wizard
obviously, wiz is a heavy magic faction. ofc, they are the one with max Sp build. what else? max atk? max def?
I could survive longer but only because of Gargoyles, Elves and Barbarians lack such a mobile defensive unit. This has nothing to do with magic though
correct, you survive longer to deal more dmg. what else? imagine that a wiz + barb hunt against a massive of zombie, sure the barb will deal impressive dmg before the zombie get near. so, what if the zombie already get near?
barb can only get his roc run like your garg. at the same time, attack with hero to buy some time? so, when will this hunt end? but your wiz still can run with garg and deal massive dmg at the same time. is it more make sense now?
In my opinion the reason is either because the hero is simply too slow even with Expert Sorcery
expert sorcery is the only talent which can give a boost on your hero ini and it is 100% guarantee once you cast spell.
sure, we still got empathy talent to boost ini but it required troops burst action to trigger it; it could be risky if any troops with negative morale as bad morale will push back hero ini.
Even in PvP they aren't the strongest factions.
wohoo, another strongest or best theory? i m bored with that, i had see similar topic countless.
Golems in particular and Gremlins as well are simply horibble in every regard they have no real strengths.
ah... my farmer and bowmen are simply horrible too, they are so slow and useless. they always die before they can deal some actual dmg; same to my zombie and incen which were slow like snail.
There are too few caster around and most do use Magic Punch, so the magic resistance is quite a weak bonus.
that's how your golem can survive.
The immunity to delay is also not a really helpful bonus since they are so slow that casting delay on them is actually a waste anyway most of the time.
oh, really? eh... do you ever see zombie get a expert delay while shrew get expert rapid? imagine that. thx to machine unit, some dark spells never work on them which causing me having hard time to deal with them.
Sure Griffins have it too, but thanks to their massvive initiative and good damage they can actually make some use of it.
yeah, thx to thier massive ini + low hp + weak def, they always die fast before deal more dmg. 1 confusion could kick griffin hard, but modern golem? | dude the fasct your hero deals so much damage makes up for your weaker troops, no other faction can deal over 800 damage without moving a single troop. wizard gets the most interesting troops, the healing of golems, no retal, casters, and unlimited retal. and then you can pick'n'mix your troops stats to suite your style of play. this makes wizards the strongest faction.
your golems are not your main troops either. our is guardians. how would you feel wasting 3 turns just getting your main damage stack across the field to attack, instead you fly your gargoyles into a corner and dish out the damage. without any harm on your troops. imo you guys are too strong as it is. | | Hmm .. Not really .. if u fight against Barbs, yes they are weak .. :) coz barbs resist on magic, if u play against Knights or Elves U will know the power of Magic ... :) KNIGHTS : SLOW and ELVES : LOW HPS .. :) | If the stats of the wizard troops would be improved, there would be even more might wizards. The spells are very strong with enough spellpower, and there is no place to hide from them. And spells don't get retaliation.
The longer the fight takes, the better the wizard gets. because you dont lose the ability to deal damage, if your damage dealing stacks perishes or are weakened. | | Hmm : Wizards have weak troops but impressive Hero .. :) Yes, Pang was right that u could deal a lot of damages when the other hero still have to run and run their last unit .. u can still attack with ur magic .. :) | Pang: obviously, wiz is a heavy magic faction. ofc, they are the one with max Sp build. what else? max atk? max def?
Answer: Check Phase. You can play Wizards as might build as well. It does not asnwer the question why other factions with strong magic talents are never played as Caster for long like DE for example.
Pang:
correct, you survive longer to deal more dmg. what else? imagine that a wiz + barb hunt against a massive of zombie, sure the barb will deal impressive dmg before the zombie get near. so, what if the zombie already get near?
Answer: And now imagine Wizards not having the arbitrary hunt bonus.
Pang:
expert sorcery is the only talent which can give a boost on your hero ini and it is 100% guarantee once you cast spell.
sure, we still got empathy talent to boost ini but it required troops burst action to trigger it; it could be risky if any troops with negative morale as bad morale will push back hero ini.
Answer:
1.) It is not enough
2.) Wizards do not get Empathy
3.) Where are troops with negative morale? I have yet to see any.
Pang:
ah... my farmer and bowmen are simply horrible too, they are so slow and useless. they always die before they can deal some actual dmg; same to my zombie and incen which were slow like snail.
I have never denied that other factions have useless creatures as well but this is about how there are maybe 5% Spellpower builds out while by my estimate 95% of all players play a might build and it is not about other sucky creatures.
I did use the golems arguemnt to underline why the artificial and illogical hunt bonus was neccessary so that wizards do not suck so hard that no one would play them, or why did they not gain that bonus in the original game like the others got their factions more or less?
Pang:
that's how your golem can survive.
Answer: This does not make sense at all.
Pang:
oh, really? eh... do you ever see zombie get a expert delay while shrew get expert rapid? imagine that. thx to machine unit, some dark spells never work on them which causing me having hard time to deal with them.
Answer: I do see delays on a variety of units. Rapid in Golems? Never seen Rapid cast on them. On others units I did see it though.
Pang:
yeah, thx to thier massive ini + low hp + weak def, they always die fast before deal more dmg. 1 confusion could kick griffin hard, but modern golem?
Answer: You really want to argue that Griffns are worse than Golems? Really?
What about thanks to shitty ini, shitty movment, shitty Hitpoints Golems often die before they could do anything useful.
navimegaman:
dude the fasct your hero deals so much damage makes up for your weaker troops, no other faction can deal over 800 damage without moving a single troop. wizard gets the most interesting troops, the healing of golems, no retal, casters, and unlimited retal. and then you can pick'n'mix your troops stats to suite your style of play. this makes wizards the strongest faction.
your golems are not your main troops either. our is guardians. how would you feel wasting 3 turns just getting your main damage stack across the field to attack, instead you fly your gargoyles into a corner and dish out the damage. without any harm on your troops. imo you guys are too strong as it is.
Answer: Yeah I see a lot of this damage in group battles and thiefs. Yes and since Wizards are so strong they hold all the hunt records.
Oh wait.
Albeit I admit that the hunt bonus is too strong and also absolutely artificial and only saving grace ultimatly.
Imagine Wizards not having it. | | dude wait until level 10 and get fireball, then start complaining about lack of damage. | Answer: Check Phase. You can play Wizards as might build as well. It does not asnwer the question why other factions with strong magic talents are never played as Caster for long like DE for example.
Because DEs and other factions don't have the bonus against neutrals with magic, making a magic build for any other faction then wizard only usable in PVPs. | | dude if you say magic weak then change faction then..wizz have powerful hero of course weak troop..you assume that wizz have powerful hero and troop?LoL then the game become imba..i dont see any bad or WEAK on wizz now ..may be you DONT KNOW how to use it?if yes please dont whine here | | As I see it, it's cheaper to play might build compared to magic. And I think that that is maybe the biggest reason why most of the players are using might build. | Oh poor wizards so hard to play them... Like navimegaman said wait till lvl 10 and fireball. You don t have to think much on battlefild with them just cast magic and run with gargs. Now imagine playing low hp elf, demon or slow knight where you must think what too do not just run and cast... Hit me with fireball once, twice and some other player shoot me with bows or something else when i m playing demon or de kill many troops before i can even move with shrews in 2vs2 or 3vs3 gbs that is frustrating. Every faction have their advantages and disadvantages.
So most hunt records comming from wizards, best scores in survival tourney. One of best factions in gbs on higher levels if not the best. You want more magic power with easiest faction too play? | he only saw the disadvantage of wiz and advantage of other faction... wiz advantage and other faction disadvantage? sorry, he prefer to ignore and deny.
he bring up the griffin and modern golem comparison. i give him 1 but he consider that as 'argue' where griffin will just die within afew turn in gb and cant deal so called 'MASSIVE' dmg.
yeah, shrew, efk, mino deal massive dmg, i agree with that. so, i wonder why dont the wiz just throw 1 zap on it. 1 spell can almost wipe the entire stack which almost make them useless in the rest of fight on battlefield.
magic DE in gb is deadly. the last blindfold tour had show that. the reason not much DE go with magic path: they dont have the godliked bonus spell dmg like wiz AND magic arts are more expensive. ofc, magic DE can live with it if he going to PvP all the way and stop all PvE fights. | ever considered elf has the same problem? Lowest hp faction, in hunt every enemy is a favourite enemy (same as for wizard's spells) but in battles there is only one favourite enemy for each enemy (comparative to miniarts)
ever thought about using haste on golems? Since they are immune to slow... | the fact that non wizard faction are less likely to play magic builds instead of might arises from the diffrence between pvp and pvm. Creatures controlled by the computer are generally dumb thats the reason why you can deal massive ammounts of damage to them (might build) and distract them with dummy units.
The balance between factions is not on the basis of playing versus neutral creatures but in pvp. In order to enable wizards to compete in huts with other faction they where given the neutral damage bonus. If you would delete the bonus and improve wizards units in such a way that wizzards still achieve comparable results in hunts, then all wizzards would play might instaed of magic.
Obviously this is not intended by the creators of the game.
I wouldn't call wizzards weak in pvp, a short look at the last everyone for onself tournament can proofe this.
Magic build of other factions are also quite good in pvp. The reason why DE sorcerers are killed as fast as possible and thus survieve only a few rounds in pvp is that they would kill averything if not. | You guys seem to not understand the issue.
Compare the amount of might builds with spellpower builds across all factions. You will see that about 90% or more play a might build. The top 100 are almost all composed of might builds even after the change which decreased mini artifact costs to 0 the amount of wizards has hardly changed.
I also have never said that Wizards are weak in PvP. I just said they aren't the best. That doesn't mean they aren't good.
Ranor, that is exactly my point. Magic is weak and the gear is in comparison to might items damn expensive. Other than wizards none even has the option to play it really because it sucks outside of PvP. And even in PvP who but Wizards play Spellpower builds? The only DE Caster I have seen in a long time was Dionysius and even he switched to a Might build.
Pang:
he only saw the disadvantage of wiz and advantage of other faction... wiz advantage and other faction disadvantage? sorry, he prefer to ignore and deny.
he bring up the griffin and modern golem comparison. i give him 1 but he consider that as 'argue' where griffin will just die within afew turn in gb and cant deal so called 'MASSIVE' dmg.
yeah, shrew, efk, mino deal massive dmg, i agree with that. so, i wonder why dont the wiz just throw 1 zap on it. 1 spell can almost wipe the entire stack which almost make them useless in the rest of fight on battlefield.
magic DE in gb is deadly. the last blindfold tour had show that. the reason not much DE go with magic path: they dont have the godliked bonus spell dmg like wiz AN
Answer: You miss the point completely again. I will stop arguing since you aren't getting it. I was illustrating as to why Wizards are the only faction having a real use for magic and even then magic was too weak and had to be buffed for them in hunts and mercs artificially with this totally stupid hunt bonus.
Remove the stupid Hunt bonus I do not care for it at all and make magic comparatively strong for hunts and GBs. As I said times again it is the only saving grace for wizards in these fields.
And for heavens sacke make more viable strategies for wizards. Running away with Gargoyles all day and just casting all day long gets boring and is no real strategic play anyway.
On the 'One spell zap the stack' this untrue. Large stacks of Minos will not die in one lighting spell. Shrews are more vulnerable to it I admit that.
But this is not about PvP only. | | I remember that KUSIKA ever became a MIGHT-Wizard and could still win in group battle .. but for hunting, yeah they are suck .. :) |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
1|2|3|4|5|6Back to topics list
|
