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| Author | High level artifacts (might VS magic) |
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For almost each kind of arts, there is both might and magic type of arts.
For exemple: Mithril longsword and Mythril staff
The thing, is that it seems to me that might set is way better than a magic one: appart from the debate about magic being badder than might on high level (you know, 5% more attack / def being better than a mere +10 damage for 1 SP)
Might arts give a better boost to stats, (+6 atk for Mithril longsword, against +1 atk, +2 SP and +2 KN for mythril staff); furthermore, might arts give aditionnal bonuses, like ini boost, or several damage modifiers, while magic ones don't.
Having a might set also grants magic shield; from 25 to 30%, depending wich armor is chosen.
One last point: magic set gives really high KN (5 KN), wich means that when using full set, it seems wise to use a potion of oblivion in order to reduce base KN, and add more SP.
The same applies when going for min AP / little set, while wearing full set before.
Am I wrong on this point, or is there really no future for magic users (at least on PvP... PvM seems ok to me as a wiz)?
Or, at least, the ones relying on destruction spells? | | You are not wrong, magic at the moment is crap. The only thing that you can do well with magic is fights against neutrals as wizard, because of the bonus spell damage there. | | just buy the best arts for your lvl,and u will have 14-19 SP and get chaos magic perk,so u will deal great damage with lightning.With good mini arts u will be very strong cheater) | | And it was a battle where a magic DE won against a might DE.. so magic isn't always weaker than might.. | i think DE should be really strong with Magic .... mostly bcz their racial skill is Piercing Magic
ppl on high lvl complain that they get killed easy when they use magic build , but thats cuz they use lot of Rogues / Shrews .... for Magic build you need lot of creatures with lot of HP ( Hydra , Lizard etc. ) that can tank and to put your Shrews / Rogues as the lowest priority
then your creatures can tank while you get to finish your opponent with magic attacks ( having Expert Sorcery really helps with those situations )
also ppl complain bout Magic build arts cost way too much , but thats the point , the harder game is , the more fun it gives + when you don't have enough money for arts you just take your time & you don't get bored with battles as fast as you would get with Might ( non stop battles ) | | about the magic DE, they have to max the minos.. hidras and lizards die faster.. but anyway, this discussion was somehow about wizards.. IMO, they're very good when they have a big lvl (combat and faction). full arts are just excellent! | Magic in high levels is really bad at the moment trust me :) There are 2 big problems with magic that cause this :
1) The biggest area effect spell, fireball, is 3x3 , and in most cases ( especially in PvP but also in PvM fights ) you will not be able to hit more than 2 stacks with it. This is a big problem when you combine it with the second problem;
2) Hero initiative is crap compared to creatures initiative. Magic artifacts give attack but they don't give hero initiative like melee arts give melee initiative. Also hero is not affected by luck/morale. And of course hero hits once every time he plays while creature based factions got 4 stacks many of which play a lot faster than the hero.
The 2 things mentioned above mean that you need around 6-7 turns to kill opponent stacks in pvp with magic while the might opponent needs around 3 or 4 to kill you with his fast troops. Don't forget that when you are into a magic build your creatures are more or less harmless so the opponent doesn't need to worry about the damage they do. In PvM, there are cases that wizards are good being casters but that's only because of the huge spelldamage bonus versus neutrals. In caravans for example, that you don't have spell damage bonus, wizard is the weakest faction by far.
You can try playing magic DE at higher level with a lot of minos, but it won't really be nearly as good as might build. Your excellent creatures will become worthless without attack and opponent will just come close and kill you in 3-4 turns while he spreads to avoid fireball.
Magic talents are also crap, especially the inner parts of the trees - there is only one really powerful talent in the inner magic trees ( Intellect ) but that is nothing compared to stuff like Battle Fury or the Defense sub-tree inner talents ( keep in mind that both magic oriented factions don't have defense tree available which is a bit weird since you need survivability to cast spells for long - most likely balance issues for might build abusing of those trees :P ). And of course erudition when used for spellpower is really crap compared to offense... Sorcery helps a lot but it is not enough alone.
I hope magic will be playable in the future - maybe with introduction of better area spells from HoMM series ( at magic guilds 4,5 ) and/or better magic artifacts and talents. | 7.
yeah yeah, crap here, crap there. not mention you but other, it seems like someone has a crap mind by justify on his own view and failed to see the rest.
the only 2 problems for spell faction had are :
1. morale and luck as hero doesnt get benefits from those 2 talent.
2. hunt, not all faction has bonus dmg like wiz
i dont see what's wrong with spell build in PvP beside the 1st problem.
hero turn is coming slower than most unit but keep in mind that sorcery talent can speed up your hero turn coming with constant boost. it is a guarantee boost for every spell you cast; even morale 5 doesnt guarantee your stack get a SURE burst action. ofc, if morale trigger, that's another story. but, the point is hero turn can be speed up.
it is NONSENSE that someone justify spell is weak based on AoE spell. this is LWM, you can have N v N situation. AoE spell dmg CANT be too good or else the entire game will be ruined. take an example in ambush, so is that slow faction SHOULD get killed by those damn fireball and ice ring? better AoE spell? meteor shower 4x4 ? so you can ambush your victim easier or get killed even faster?
in most of case, i bet magic faction will spam single target spell rather than AoE spell. it can deal greater dmg with less mana wasted. what make you think killing 1 big stack is worse than dealing weaker dmg on multi stacks?
someone might miss the another point. spell dmg cant be resist easily; it is even worse that if you are encounter a spell DE, resistance will meaningless. magic pierce still can deal handsome dmg to you. | I have to agree with what you said Jabbar. Problem is i have never seen a "fair" fight with a high lvl magic DE involved.
Fact is, almost every high lvl player are doing pvp with a lot of enchanted stuff (often full offence enchantment). But I have never seen a magic guy wearing full enchanted jewellery. If i'm correct, it would mean ~72% more spell damage.
Has anyone such a replay? | "hero turn is coming slower than most unit but keep in mind that sorcery talent can speed up your hero turn coming with constant boost. it is a guarantee boost for every spell you cast; even morale 5 doesnt guarantee your stack get a SURE burst action. ofc, if morale trigger, that's another story. but, the point is hero turn can be speed up."
Ok here are specific numbers to show what i mean. You are a spellcaster of faction X and you face a demon. You have expert sorcery and good defense and your hero can do lightning 300 with initiative 13. Assuming combat level 12.
Lets see now what opponent has. Cerberi base initiative 13 with faction skill bonus init and arts init bonus this will become 15. They can be split into 2 stacks that each does ( with your offense talents etc ) around 200 damage to the opponent troops that have a decent defense but no talents for it. Also there is a nice stack of hell horses with base init 16 that can easily reach 19 init and does around 350-400 damage. Those stacks gate on their first move and then start moving towards your creatures. They are nicely spread so you can do lightning to them and maybe kill 1 stack every time you play. And that does not count luck or morale
In this situations trust me you will never cast more than 2 spells before you lose. Even with initiative 13 on hero and 300 damage or 400 or 500. Same problems you will get against dark elf or barbarian. You can maybe kill elves with magic since they have low hit points or knights that are slow similar to casters. At the moment magic damage from 1 source has to compete with similar damage from 3 or 4 sources might opponent has, and there is no chance you can survive that. At lower levels this is not a problem because opponents have 1-2 dangerous stacks and after you kill them you can cast forever like a king.
Go watch a few level 11-12 grp battles. Most of them end on the second or third turn. When one team has a pure caster and the other team does not, the caster team will lose in 90% of the cases ( and the caster will be the first to lose ).
And with current arts/talents also spell damage is weak. Maximum damage a caster can do in pvp battle is like 600 with elemental call for DE and around 400 for wizard if pushed as hard as possible ( neglecting defense etc ) while creatures can easily do 500-600 damage without luck [ dont want to mention crazy stuff like lizards normal damage in 1 hit ].
I have seen exactly what magic can do in higher levels through vast experience, and it is FAR worse that might. Even wizards with huge spell power bonus cannot compete for hunt records anymore in most creatures :P | | 9: The problem is not the amount of damage you do, the huge problem is that you dont have time to do that damage more than 2-3 times. Your melee opponents will kill you before spells can matter in PvP. | BTW sorry for triple posting i wanna make clear that this not a complaint from my part. I am just stating that might and magic builds in general are imbalanced. This might be intentional on behalf of admins and it is not really a bad thing all in all.
Faction balance though regarding might is very good at the moment and wizards and dark elves perform very nicely under might builds. | | 11: I know the biggest problem is ini. There should defenitly be some arts raising heros ini at expense of SP/KN. It is just i wished to see how the enchanted stuff works in a group battle. | 11: I know the biggest problem is ini. There should defenitly be some arts raising heros ini at expense of SP/KN. It is just i wished to see how the enchanted stuff works in a group battle.
Wich can hardly be bought since most magical players are wiz, that find better to spend there gold in mini arts :)
Alright, thanks for the replies everyone. | | closed by Slust (2009-05-11 20:56:55) |
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