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| Author | Clan Donations question |
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I notice that a lot of clans have clan funds, clan arts, etc. After reading the rules I know that there are gift rules in place for player to player transfers, but there isn't anything clear on clan donations (minus the obvious gold tax in regards to labor level).
Today #153 received a generous artifact donation (the first one actually, all other arts I personally donated out of my own pocket for clan uses) so I was just curious if this was acceptable. And if not, that the rules should be updated because a dozen or so clans come to mind where members actively donate artifacts for clan use, etc.
The donation has been properly documented on our clan page under clan art rental section of course, but I like to be thorough and following the rules.
Cheers,
LS | | Topic moved from "Complaints and applications" to "Queries and help". | | I put this topic into complaints and applications because Admins don't read these forums last I heard, Kotrin. Or do they read these now? | | There is no rule about donations to and from a clan, excepting multis. There is a rule about presents for another player, but not about donations to and from a clan. Or at least no rule which is older than few weeks (one month maximum). | I also see a lot of problems with the lack of rules regarding clan donations to and from players.
The clan tax aside, there's many ways where players can donate or clans do non-gold taxes on members.
Also player to player transfer rules can be waived by having a player donate to a clan, then having the clan benefit another player. This loophole should be closed. | What would be really awesome is if a Clan had a seperate inventory for such donations, with a log of its own...wouldn't that solve a lot of murky issues?
I mean because I donate heavily to my clan. I must be dropping at least 20k a week on my own clan haha. | #5:
Why? What are the benefits for being into a clan if you close the connections between its members? It's not that one gets more benefits than the others, but if someone can help another member of the clan in one moment of time, why not to be allowed? The wheel is spinning and later the person who helped once another member of his clan will need help from that member. A clan creates a symbiosis between its members. Cutting that symbiosis, the clan has no reason to exist. | | Agree with #6. | #7
I didn't say anything about closing the connections. I'm just voicing the problems with the lack of rules and regulations in this area. #6 is a great idea. This would certainly help. Currently there's no clan inventory and clan logs do not let you type in transfer descriptions.
CGSM, let me ask you what's the point of having 33% gift restriction between players? This restriction should also apply for clans, so players can't use clans to wash their gold and arts.
Also what's the point of having a restriction on clan taxes limited by labor level, if clans can do non-gold taxes? | #9:
33% are actually 30% and the percentage is related to the monthly income (yet, it is a little bit ambigue there). On the other hand, presents are something you give without getting anything back. Clan help is like a wheel (as I said before): every time there is another player who can help. There is a big difference in between the two concepts.
Take the following example. All the donation contracts should be done (in real life) in the presence of a notary who has his/her share. If your parents have a need of money for a medical emergency, don't you give them the money they need without going to a notary to make a paper for that?
A clan is a familly. What would be a familly without its members supporting each other? | #9
I hadn't even thought of non-gold taxes haha.
We have a small tax in #153, but people have donated things to clan in past in the form of reduced element sales, etc. But this is the first time I get a nice artifact for clan uses, and I almost feel strange with it because every other artifact in our clan inventory I have paid for out of my own pocket. So in essence, I am left feeling pretty perplexed as I know there are people out there that have donated over 500,000 gold to their clans as well, and no one bats an eye.
But meh. I only brought this up because I want to keep my clear conscience even though the more I think about it, the more meaningless my post appears to be, since everyone donates things to clans, all the time, if they are able. | #10
You can call "clan" whatever you want. The fact is that "clan" is nothing more than a group of players. This group of players can be anything from a family to just 2 players who wants to wash their gold/arts in order to avoid big brother's rules.
Also in LS's case the donation came from outside of the clan. | #12
Yea it came from this:
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1849735
Well in any case, if admins ask me to return it, I can do that...no big deal. Just feels nice to finally get a nice art donated to clan--in my case, being a real, legitimate, nice clan with over 70 members. | #11
I brought up taxes too because it relates to donations. Some clans don't tax you if you have donated X amount.
Then there's the non-gold taxes/donations. Many clans use some sort of point based system. Depending on how they setup the system players can bypass the player-player restrictions or the clan tax restrictions.
I know that multis aren't allowed into clans and players leaving the game can't give away their gold, but by involving clans it is easier for them to hide their transactions. It's same as if they are buying/selling 1 ore for 500,000 gold. | #13
Yep, I saw that topic, then a while later I saw you create this topic.
It's not the ask and return thing that I worry about. It's the same as with your TGI problem a while ago. Admins tend to hit you first, then ask questions later (that is if they even ask at all). Though I don't blame them, the rules are hard to enforce and there are loopholes within the rules themselves. | #12:
If you consider money wash everytime you help your familly with money, then, yes, a clan is only for that. I don't wish you to reach the point of feeling on your skin what you've just said. It is really painful to be alone in this world.
OK! Another example. You are broke. You barely survive, but you love someone. Wouldn't you invite that beloved person for a coffee in a bar? Or wouldn't you buy a bouquet of flowers to show your feelings? Wouldn't you give the last cent from your pocket just to see a smile on her face?
I would do it even with the price to break any law. And even if you manage to persuade the admins to cut that kind of connections between me and the members of my clan, I'd rather be an outlaw than to tell one friend I cannot help him because of the rules. You can start monitoring me from now if you don't believe me. In this game, the clan is my familly and I would do whatever it is needed to help my familly. | I think the rules are in place to bust those that grossly exploit in game mechanics for serious self gain and advantages.
But in certain matters, as #16 brings up, well it makes sense.
Let us assume that you only have 5,000 gold but you have all the arts you need. A friend needs 3,000 gold to buy a sword of might...you are in a good mood and decide to give it to him and bam, you are in violation of the gift rule.
But then you have a wealthy guy like myself, and I make loans and offer smith discounts to my mates...even that area can be considered abusive.
What if a struggling smith is offering a 30% repair discount "As funds allow." Then he rounds up all his money, to make good on his offer, repairs a sword for someone, and bam, he is left with zero gold after the fix...technically that is a violation too.
I think the whole point is though, that so long as you aren't being a pirate about it, I guess honest folks have little to fear so long as admins have the time/patience to investigate each matter thoroughly. It really is a challenge to 'follow' the rules to the tee, when in reality, some of them just don't make any sense in a colorful world. | #17:
Actually, a friend of mine (from my clan) was reported for getting help in buying few expensive arts when, inside the clan, we decided to give him our support for him to level up his TG. We will have our advantage (pay back, if you want) later because he is a good friend and he would never take something without giving back something else. But this is in a long shot. So, guess what? Somebody considered that as a violation of the rules.
Those who think like Pantheon, they will never understand what friendship is if they don't want to see beyond that "money laundry" idea.
I know, not all the clans have a composition of friends only, but for that you cannot shut down the communication in all the clans. |
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