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| Author | A Guide to Money: What is unfair? |
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Ah, I said earlier somewhere I would debunk those crazy accusations some new players seem to have about how the rich are too wealthy and unfairly so. Whether it be, "No fair, he has real money to spend!" or "He must be haxing or somfin..." or even "Boo, I can't play as often as he does this game is not fair to ME!"
These are silly complaints, and if you have ever thought any of these at some point perhaps you should read the words following those fancy bulletins below :)
• Donations and gold: Someone really spent real money on this game?! How could they do such a thing and interrupt the balance! Well, I'll tell you. They enjoy playing this game, and wish to support it in the only way possible. They get a gift of diamonds for doing so. These shiny gifts can, in turn, be exchanged for gold. Is the amount of gold enough to influence the balance of the game and economy? Of course not. At 2500 gold per diamond, one would have to spend more than 80 Euro (even more USD) for a full set of top-of-the-line arts. Diamonds much better spent on a Thief Guild Invite.
If this is a player's way of purchasing their arts, all the more to them. They are doing a service to the game and deserve that bonus. Can't afford to donate? Well neither can I! The least you can do is not complain that others can afford to. Wouldn't it be worse if the devs couldn't afford to keep this game running?
• Cheating to obtain gold: There are a few ways that one could cheat to earn gold. Of all of them, only one is really possible and easily detectable. The first two, which have already been debunked, are scripts for enrollment and hacking the password-protected roulette zip.
Any possible scripts for enrollment are too inaccurate to read the captcha (the image with words that you must enter to enroll) and any that could read it or could figure out the code would take more than an hour to do so. Each hour the captcha image changes, making it exponentially more difficult for such scripts, bots, etc...
The same applies for the roulette zip password. The password is so long and well encrypted that if one could crack it, it would take far more than a month's time using random generators and the likes. As far as I have researched there would be no other way for one to crack one of these, and those with the technologies to would very likely not be playing this game or be willing to waste their time (and money) on such a pointless task.
The final, and only possible way to cheat is to create multis. This is very easy to find and are strictly punished. If you find someone with quite a large sum of money for their level be sure to look at their transfer log, roulette record, and tavern log. Chances are they play the odds well on roulette. | • "Cheating," or Playing the Economy: You have gold because you earned it by buying Defender Shields and other products in high demand and selling them for a higher price on the market?! For shame that you do not share!
That, of course, was sarcasm. Anyone who does this is a merchant and has a great sense of economics. They deserve every bit of gold they get. However this is time consuming and requires more effort than most are willing to put into the game. Do not let this be discouraging though! This is something I have never participated in and somehow, I still seem to be fine on gold :) If this is a practice you have a problem with, I would suggest you don't play this game, let alone fill your gas tank ever. Gone green? Then replace "tank of gas" with "gallon of milk." Yeah. The dairy market is surprisingly like the petrol market. And if your vegan, try soy or organics. They're even more fierce! Ah but I digress..
• A time to gold ratio: Contrary to popular belief, time is _not_ money. One may say that someone who plays more often gets more gold! Well, if we are looking at a day-to-day basis than that is true; they will have made more gold than you within one day. Now I will ask you to change your perspective. The guy with more gold than you played for 5 hours in a day, and you play for 1 hour each day. I bet you, granted your statistics and actions are constant, in 5 days you will make the same amount that the other player made in one day. Simply speaking, if you are logged in for the same amount of time as someone else, no matter how that time is split up, you have the exact same opportunities. Just because you don't have time to play often does not mean you're missing out on anything... you are just progressing the same amount over a longer period of real-time.
If you really don't have time to play this game enough for it to be enjoyable, then perhaps it is time you found a new hobby rather than posting a thread about how unfair it is that others have more time than you.
If you don't want to read all of this, feel free to find the bulletin that suits you best :) | If you don't want to read all of this, feel free to find the bulletin that suits you best :)
Wouldn't that be too late since you post this at the bottom of the "bulletin"? | Wouldn't that be too late since you post this at the bottom of the "bulletin"?
I put that at the bottom for the people who just scroll straight down to reply ;p | I put that at the bottom for the people who just scroll straight down to reply ;p
haha... btw, nice "bulletins" | | bahahahaha, I knew that sounded wrong. Bullets.... I meant "bullets" ;p | ipslne, you are right, but you omitted one tiny point. if one is "working" 5 hours a day (5h/d) and another one is "working" 1 hour a day (1h/d), that one with 5h/d will be able to enjoy the game even if level up (5h/d is a little bit tight for that, but let's leave it like that for the sake of the argument itself), while that one with 1h/d will stay spectator for quite a long time, looking at the others how they enjoy the game because he/she doesn't have the required money for building the new constructions in the castle and he/she doesn't have money for buying his/her level artifacts. so, from here the frustrations are coming and from here the spring of complaints.
i heard people saying "you can make from 200-1000 extra per hour selling resources". may i say bullshit? sorry for my language, but it's like this: you spend one full hour running from one point to another, buying and selling, fighting the thieves and so on. i prefer another version: if i am to stay in front of my computer one hour, i make an application, sell it and if i need money in the game, i donate. why is it better this way? even at low paycheck of 5 euros per hour, if you donate 1 euro from that, you get 2500 gp and the admins are happy too. if it is worth to donate, that's another story i don't want to speak about.
why this last remark? simply because you mentioned the economy. it's a nightmare, not economy. not to say that the magic powder is all te time missing from the artifacts factories and higher level arts can be found only in the artifact shop where your money is going where? because they don't play any role in this economy. and there are some other aspects, but let's stop here.
my point here is (please, no offence): usually these theories you presented seem very solid, but they aren't. there are many aspects you didn't take into consideration here (e.g., arts & buildings for the level up, trying to break top hunters records, trying to be a successful thief/mercenary), and people are challenged by those aspects and this economy doesn't allow to beat too many of those challenges.
nice thread anyway.
[Player banned by moderator Zyanya until 2009-02-18 14:01:07 // No you may not use that word on forums and apologising doesn't relieve you from the responsibility either. Warning ban.] | I appreciate the response... though you've missed the crucial point. That guy who plays 1 hour a day? Do you think he does nearly as many battles as the guy who plays 5 hours a day? How could he reach the point at which he needs to build castle constructions without doing a similar amount of battles as the guy who plays 5 hours a day? Yes, it would take him longer to get to that point, but that's exactly the thing. It's all relative, you can only hunt every so often... the guy who plays 1 hour a day probably does one mercenary mission and one hunt; whereas the guy who plays 5 hours a day probably does 5 hunts and 5 merc missions.
If the guy who is playing 1 hour a day does more PvP instead of hunting and doing Mercenary Missions and reaches a new level without the gold to buy a new castle, then that is his fault for not balancing his skills out. His Laborer's Guild is likely to be stunted, as well as his Hunter's Guild and Faction Skill.
If that guy who plays 5 hours a day did more PvP he'd be in exactly the same situation. It's all about how you round out your character, not about the time you put into the game each day. Yes, the guy playing for 1 hour a day will see many people moving past him; he will see those people get higher and higher up... but that's simply because they have more time. Who's fault is that? Perhaps it is that this game is not for people with so little time. Everyone has the same opportunity; two people put 5 hours into a game but spread out in different amounts. One person does it all at once, the other does it in 5, 1 hour intervals. Assuming they do the same things with their time they will reach the exact same situation.
As for the selling resources bit, it is certainly possible to make that much gold. Per hour? Maybe not. 1000 gold in a couple hours? That sounds feasable. As I said before, it's all about how much time you are willing to put into buying and selling resources. By resources, I include things like Defender Shields... essentially anything sold on the map. These people are simply intermediaries. Mines produce for machining facilities, which produce for production facilities that produce for the player. Those who take advantage of this make money by playing all the roles in between; taking raw materials to be machined, then machined goods to production facilities, and products to the players; all for a bit of profit. Hence, they are merchants. That is how they chose to spend their time in this game and they get their work's worth for it.
The only problem with this economy is that there aren't enough players yet to influence the administration to expand the facilities yet. Who is to say the economy is to be easy for people anyways? Those who want to put in less effort make their money by enrolling where they can. Those that put more work into the economy make more money. That, essentially, is what makes it an "economy." | #8:
Well, I wouldn't like to argue too much your points because, mainly, like you, I am not doing the marketing here and I don't complain about having too less money, but I need to defend my point of view (because I've met people in that case I spoke about).
First of all, there is a thread "how to make money in lwm" and from there I took those numbers. Me, I have nothing to do with that. :)
Secondly, I apologize I spoke foul word in your thread. I don't know what happened to me, but I promise I won't do it again.
Thirdly, that player who can afford 5h/d, he/she is "working" and hunting mainly, because he/she has a job in the real life and cannot afford more. Maybe in the evening, he/she can afford a MG quest, pvp or TG combat. Not so much differing from the person who cannot enter at all this game during the working hours from the real life job.
I wasn't speaking about seeing the others surpassing him/her. I am speaking about, e.g., a full set of arts for combat level 7 Elf is about 170k gp's. Not to say that you manage to have that amount at the end of your 7th combat level, when you have to have in your own treasury about 60k for building the castle construction for leveling up (not considering the upgrades). As you can see, I am giving myself as example (and my online hours per day are much more than 5), so, I am not speaking about hypotheses. And, I still have to restrain myself from different combats now because I will level up without enough money. That makes me wonder how in the world one can level up with lower number of hours a day? And I got an answer: you do the forest keepers upgrade at the end of level 8 (real answer from such a person I spoke about). That is pretty frustrating and you can understand why.
Nevertheless, my point here is that you need to "work" more than you fight and that can raise frustration for some players who are here for combat strategy challenge and not economical strategy challenge. And that's why I said you miss an important factor in your logic (actually, it wasn't emphasized enough). Otherwise, you are right, it is a simple change of reference system (lol, I'm doing physics and I can see I cannot get rid of this concept even here). | I see what you're saying about difficulties in having enough gold at the end of your level in order to build a castle; but still that has strictly nothing to do with how often you play. You gain combat levels from experience and you gain experience from battles and you can only do so many battles in a given amount of time.
Yes, the person who plays one hour a day will come across the same problems a person who plays even 10 hours a day. Just at a different general time because they are playing at different rates.
The problem of not having enough gold to build castle constructions is irrelevant to this thread unless your point is that you will not have enough gold because you have less time to play. In which case, I have pointed out twice now that it has nothing to do with how often you play... and you have not introduced an argument countering that.
Now, your point about not having enough to get a full set of arts is accurate. It takes one, single, initial investment to get you a full set of arts for an entire level. That might actually mean taking a break from combats to work or play "merchant." Those who can't play very often may find themselves having trouble getting that full set. This is no different in any other RPG. If you want that good equipment or more money than the average joe, than you put more time into the game outside of fighting. Generally speaking, though, if the person who plays less often decides only to log in one hour for every day just to enroll... they are doing that very same thing. It will just take them many many more days to reach that goal.
Essentially, this game is like all games of the genre. You put time in to get better than others. Though you are still given the option to play at your leisure, in which case you will level without trouble and can do many of the same things everyone else can. If that person playing leisurely wants to get a full set it will just take them much longer.
Also, there has to be some reason why people are having trouble affording castle upgrades. Perhaps the idea is that you skip out on that full set at level 7? You have to learn to budget your gold... you can't have everything. If it were made easier for you then it would be made easier for everyone else. I, personally, have done nothing special. I enroll, I hunt, I do Mercenary Missions, and I do Caravans. I even PvP on occasion. The only time I had to wait to buy a castle construction was at level 5 when I wanted to get Sprites. That is only because I wasn't budgeting my gold.
These two threads are mainly about learning to handle your gold so you aren't caught needing massive amounts for arts or upgrades. Just from experience I am saying that if you are in desperate need of more than 25k, you aren't spending wisely. If you need more than 25k for arts... then save up for them. Just so long as you know how to sustain their use and re-buy them.
Ah, I am digressing off of this main topic and becoming long-winded. Out of room. | | Ah, and as for swearing in "my" thread... it is not so much that it is my thread, it is simply the Forum rules. Nothing personal :) | | I agree with everything you say in here. This game is not only about success on the battlefield, but also about how you manage your money. If you manage your gold correctly, you have nothing to worry about when it comes time to buy arts or castle upgrades. That, in turn, will help you be better equipped in battle, giving you a better chance of success. | Theoretically, the person who plays 1 hour a day actually has a better chance at more money/hour than the player who plays 5 hours a day. If you play 5 hours a day, and try your 5 mercs and 5 hunts, you also enroll when you get on and then once every hour until you leave. Should be a total of 6 enrolls (1 on each end of your 5 hours and 4 for the hour changes in the middle). The 1 hour a day person enrolls twice (when they get on and just before they leave) and has 1 merc fight and 1 hunt.
5 hours - 6 enrolls, 5 hunts, 5 mercs
1 hour a day (after 5 days) - 10 enrolls, 5 hunt, 5 merc
That's pretty easy math for me | #13
Building on your reasoning the person who plays 1 hour a day would be able to fight more often than the person who does 5 hours a day.
The 1 hour player would be able to hunt both in the beginning and at the end of his 1 hour a day. Or do merc twice. Also the 1 hour player would always be 100% troop readiness at the beginning of every hour unlike the 5 hour player who needs to wait for recovery. | I do have a complaint about 1 issue on the economics of this game. The merchant part on shortages (may that be resources or arts). Many players are angry about the blackmarket merchants who hoard, monopolize, and gouge other players on these shortages.
-You may say everyone can buy these resources.
Wrong! Even if you were camp the shift end, there is no guarantee you will be able to buy the resource. What's unfair when everyone knows about the shift end and supposedly no one is using scripts to buy faster? Well, putting reflexes aside, not everyone has the same computer with the same internet connection. So there will always be those who can consistently buy faster.
-it's just supply and demand.
Wrong! The ones who are successfully camping create artifical shortages by buying and storing the items. How do I know? There are times the market is flooded with "shortage" items.
-it's not gouging, if i gouge, then i'll get undercut.
Wrong! While these monopolizers do undercut each other, they only undercut by 1 gold. Unless the game comes up with a reverse bid option for sellers, then undercutting doesn't benefit buyers at all.
*Reverse bid is when sellers can write down the lowest price they are willing to sell. The seller's lot would automatically undercut other sellers' lots until it reaches that reverse bid price. This is like the buyer's auto bidding we have now except for it's sellers. | | It really depends on how that player spends his 1 hour. I can sign on, enroll, and do a hunt in 10 minutes easy. Therefore, I could play 1 hour a day and still enroll 6 times and do 6 hunts. Some of it just comes down to proper time management. | 13,14,16
The time/gold scenario was only hypothetical, and there to show that even those who play less each day have no disadvantage to those who have more time to play. Whether they have the benefit isn't the issue (though I suppose it better supports the point).
Time management is a variable I decided would be best left as constant for the subject. Of course time management will change how productive or less productive a player will be ;)
15
While you have made many good points, this is not a topic to complain about the economy; though in the manner of debunking the "unfairness" I will try to reply to the relevant points.
It's true, there are shortages in the mines everywhere; and not everyone will get what they want when they want it. But it is not artificial. When it becomes difficult to buy equipment on the map it is because there are simply not enough to go around. For example, 7 Defender Shields are produced per hour. I'm positive that each hour there are more than 7 players trying to get one. The guy who buys all 7 is taking advantage of an already present shortage to make a few extra gold. All the more to him for doing so. In fact, what you explained as an "artificial shortage" is exactly what a shortage is.
If you need a real-life example... you know how it was impossible to buy a PS3 when they first came out? Well, I bet if you went on E-bay at that time you'd find quite a few. Marked up, of course.
As for price gouging... I feel you are misusing that term. Price gouging is when you put something up on the market for an unreasonably higher price. In a way it's in the eye of the beholder what "unreasonable" is. Selling Defender Shields on the market for 4500 gold is hardly price gouging. Any more than that maybe... but I can't say I've seen the minimum on the market ever go up that high. Besides, I've never been forced to buy on the market. I do it when I'm feeling impatient and don't want to wait for the next shift end. Is that the player's faults for buying all the products before I can get there? Absolutely not. There is an actual shortage, whether people are buying them to resell them or not, the map would be empty.
I realize at the moment Defender Shields are in good supply; they are just being used as an example of an item that has been considered difficult to acquire for some time. | #17
You are missing my points.
1. I never said there aren't any real shortages. I only brought up artifical shortages because not every shortage is a real shortage.
Real shortage - supply is less than demand (demand - actual usage and depletion of resource)
Artificial shortage - supply is less than inflated demand (inflated demand - increased beyond normal demand by means such as hoarding and monopolizing)
Obviously not every resource can be made into artificial shortages. Only resources close to an actual shortage should be made into an artificial shortage.
2. How would you define price gouging or "unreasonable" prices? Defender shield supply has been higher than demand for much of the past 2 months. And I find it unreasonable for prices of 4500 gold, which I've seen several times. I've been forced to buy defender shields from the market because I couldn't buy from the facility. I distinctly remember several times how I couldn't buy the shields for 3 shift ends in a row. I'm sure you can find many others who also had the same issue. And it's not a supply problem because you will see dozens of shields on sale in the market. If the game doesn't limit how many items you can put on the market, I'm sure you will see many more on the market. | for Pantheon:
(Hopefully you will not misunderstand my tone. I can get into a debate pretty well, but I do not mean to come off as snide or condescending. All in friendly debate ^^; )
1. You're right in that not every shortage is a real shortage... but as of yet the only "artificial" shortages I have seen were back when Mercury, Gems and Crystals were difficult to get; and even then if you showed up at shift end it was hard not to get any. Currently this isn't an issue anymore.
All the arts that are in high demand are as such because not enough are produced. Supply is not meeting demand. Those fortunate enough to purchase those arts in large quantity do so and then turn a profit.
I'll give you another example outside of Defender Shields. Only 2-3 Rings of Inspiration are produced per hour. That is certainly not enough to meet demand; most people going there to buy any will likely want 2. If you see someone with plenty of them selling them on the market it's because they build up over time. Not many people are willing to spend that extra gold to get one.
I digress a bit. My point is that whether or not people are hoarding those arts, they will still be in short supply and difficult to get on the map.
And don't say I'm missing your point, and then simply state the definitions of real and artificial shortages. If there was something I missed, restate it so I can better understand what you're getting at. Besides, any points I feel I skipped over I did so because they were irrelevant to the point of this thread (being fairness in the economy).
2. I believe I answered this when I said that Shields build up over time in a merchant's inventory. I'm sure that many people don't like buying on the market so they have enough of a back-stock. Also, remember, only 7 Defender Shields are produced per hour, so they are only depriving 7 people of their cheaper Defender Shields for that hour. Now, if they can afford to do this all the time, it's because people are actually buying from them on the market. If you want any of this to change you must do what you would have to in a real economy... boycott them. Don't buy from them on the market and they wont be able to afford to buy Defender Shields on the market anymore; or they just wont buy them because they see that they can't turn a profit anymore.
Of course this is easier said than done, and would probably take massive organization amongst players. As it would be in a real economy.
The people who have a problem with this in-game economy not being fair will likely find similar problems in real life (but be less likely to complain about it or admit it because they know it would take actual effort to do anything about it). | Ah, I stand corrected. More than 7 Defender Shields and 2-3 Rings of Inspiration are produced per hour. I forgot that Laborer's Guild increases productivity, which in turn increases output of a facility. That does actually change things quite a bit.
Seeing this, it does seem more likely that the shortages are indeed artificial; and negates most of my above argument.
In that respect, I guess I have nothing more to say :) If people did stop hoarding than perhaps those products would become more available on the map. Nevertheless I don't change my stance that those who hoard and make a profit can do so as it is certainly a part of the game; though I suppose now I can lighten up on the people who complain about not being able to buy on the map ;p |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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