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| Author | A Guide to Money: What is unfair? |
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ipslne,
So at what percent do you feel people are price gouging? When someone sells a defender shield at 4,500 that's a 36% markup on the original price. I consider that price gouging.
"The people who have a problem with this in-game economy not being fair will likely find similar problems in real life (but be less likely to complain about it or admit it because they know it would take actual effort to do anything about it)."
This is far from the truth. The economy in this game is nowhere near what it is like in the real world. In the real world we are far closer to perfect competition than the economy in this game. In this game at times we can see monopolies of certain artifacts and resources which doesn't happen in the real world (only in rare occasions and they are closely watched by governments).
Let's compare the PS3 (from your previous example) in the real world with the Defender Shield from the game. Let's say God of War 4 came out and everyone wants a PS3 so there's a shortage. People get greedy buy PS3's to sell on Ebay. Meantime Sony realizes there's a shortage expands their production to meet the new demands. Price goes back to an equilibrium. Now in this game if there is a shortage in Defender Shields. Everyone starts hoarding Defender's Shields either to sell or for themselves or both. People start selling on the market for high prices, only the people with the fastest connection can buy the shields while everyone else would be forced to buy at the price of the market. Unfortunately this will go on indefinitely until the administrators decide to expand the production of the defender shields or create a new facility. Which is exactly what happened with the mercury problem we had not too long ago.
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Just a quick side note, the amount of defender shields that get produced in an hour depends on the labor guilds of the people working there. I think it would be safe to assume the average would be around 3 which would mean that there would be 14 defender shields produced in an hour. | for eektor:
Ouch, I have been looking at the pricing the wrong way. I see 4500 gold for a Defender Shield and I think, "Oh hey, that's only a thousand more... I can make that up in an hour." On a scale of how much gold I make that doesn't seem like much; though when put like that I see what you mean... I stand corrected there as well.
Though I still would like to point out that price gouging is when a price on the open market is considered "unreasonable" and is all about the perspective of the person making the purchase. Indeed I can see how 36% is price gouging to most people. If we were talking about a Sword of Might or something more expensive I would definitely consider it price gouging; and I would probably not buy it on the market if that were the case. However, I personally don't mind an extra 1000 gold if necessary. To me it isn't gouging; but I see where those who think it is are coming from.
As for this economy mimicking a real-world economy... that is also a case of perspective in a different sort of way. This economy is on a much much smaller scale, so even the smallest changes make extreme impacts. The fundamentals of an economy are therefore seen in the barest of aspects. There are several differences, though, that make these fundamentals difficult to discern. For example, yes there is quite a monopoly on Defender Shields. The type of monopoly held on Defender Shields is in that it is an unmatched product for it's level; not in that only one person has them and sells them at whatever price they would like. There aren't any real alternatives to a Defender Shield that even come close in effectiveness so people are forced to buy them... but it is not a single person or specific group's fault that they are hard to come by or expensive in the market; outside of the game administration.
For the PS3 example, it took more than a year for the increased production to be noticed in the States; if it even was an increased production that caused there to be more in stores. If anything, it was build-up. PS3's were expensive when they first came out, so less and less people were buying them. Eventually when there was more supply prices dropped and more people could afford them, and more were bought... though at this point demand lessened so there was no longer a shortage.
In short, PS3's may not be the best example for what you're getting at.
Though your point does still stand, and I see what you're getting at. You're right, the only way that this shortage can be taken care of is if the administration does something about it... all in relation to the end of that third paragraph. If the administration doesn't change availability things will continue this day and we are left to deal with it.
You could think of Defender Shields being a Microsoft product, Dagger of Vengeance being an Apple prodcut, and a Hunter or Master Hunter shield being Unix-based freeware.
Everyone wants the Defender Shield because it's | Oops ran out of room.
You could think of Defender Shields being a Microsoft product, Dagger of Vengeance being an Apple prodcut, and a Hunter or Master Hunter shield being Unix-based freeware. A generic PC is considered a "full set" and the administration is the Government.
You want to go out and buy a PC (get a full set), but you are forced to buy it with Windows because it's all that is available for it (Defender Shields are all that are available in terms of quality at that level). You could instead, go out and buy a or a Mac OS... good for special needs (Dagger of Vengeance, situations needing more attack). That Mac OS will require an Apple made computer to work correctly (you'll probably want enchantments on that Dagger of Vengeance to make it as worthy as a Defender Shield). In the end you're paying more for a particular use computer.
You could also buy a cheap PC without Windows and learn Linux (Use a Hunter Shield?) It's free, but takes a bit more effort to learn (random chance getting it in a drop) or you could buy a book on how to use it (cough up 1k to buy it on the market). Now you even have a nice little GUI that makes it look like Windows (+3 defense)... but it's really not quite that sparkly (+2 defense)
So in the end it seems the easiest thing to do is buy Windows (good ol' Defender Shield) because it's the easiest but more expensive (buying Def Shield on the market). But why is it this way? Well the Government (Administration) hasn't done anything to stop it.
So we live with it (buy from the market), or we use Linux :) (use something else).
Hope that all made enough sense for a real-world example ;p It's a bit shoddy, but it's getting to that point where I need a bit o' sleep. Hope this will do for now. | #19, 20
ipslne, thank you for those posts. I only brought that issue up because it's a sensitive topic for many frustrated people and you were taking up the position that the only reason why players are forced to buy from the market is because they were too lazy to go buy from the production facilities.
If those items couldn't be transferred or resold, I believe real shortages would be very rare. | I think all the real world comparisons used to compare defender shields are inaccurate. First off, defender shields shouldn't be compared to manufactured items. Defender shields are made, but it is more of a constant production at a static price resource. All the real world products are made by companies that can at whim increase prices or production.
Defender shields would more closely resemble farm produce such as corn or rice. Production and prices are relatively stable and foreseeable.
Players need defender shields. But there are those who will buy it wholesale directly from the farmers, do a huge markup, and then resell to the rest of the public. It is not the fault of the farmers who are doing constant production and have set reasonable low and set pricing, but are the fault of the resellers.
And like the real world, some players have better connections to the farmers than others, so not everyone is on an equal footing. That's why I brought up this issue since you said the economy was fair.
You might think that 1000 gold markup is a small markup, but I know many players easily make 15k per day just from resales.
I'm not just complaining about this issue. There has been many good suggestions and ideas on how to resolve this, but the admins aren't that responsive on improvements.
There are of course many other improvments that could be made, but I believe this particular economic issue should have a priority not just for the sake of players but for the admins as well since they are forced to adjust the market numbers many times. | I would like to apologize if any of my posts sound like I'm blaming anyone. I just find that the shortage issue is an unfair part of the game's economy.
I know that admins have a lot to do and can't fix/improve everything immediately.
I know that those camping and reselling shortage items do so because they can and want some extra gold. Nothing wrong with that. What they are doing are within game rules. It just isn't fair to other players and may be morally gray.
Aside from this issue, I don't find anything unfair with the economics of this game. Maybe diamonds, but that benefits the game, and in the end to everyone else too. | No worries, got your point across well and now that I am better informed it seems we are in agreement on the subject.
As for real world examples... I could have probably done without them. After re-reading that whole Microsoft Defender Shield bit I have no idea what sparked that. Probably sleeplessness. If I could I would delete it but I'm pretty sure Arctic is laughing at me somewhere o_o; | | We should be able to delete our own posts. I see mods do it all the time to their own posts. | I don't really see a problem at all with the Defender Shields. Before the tournament, prices hovered around 3500-3800. That is a reasonable markup of around 10%.
During the tournament however, demand and prices skyrocketed to the prices you mentioned. It was the same for morale rings and reprisal swords, prices became pretty steep.
This has already settled down. Rings, swords and shields don't generate that much of a profit anymore.
And with the recent increase in job capacity for the shields, this problem is terminated. Currently there are over 200 in stock, the facility is out of money.
Economy as a whole is very slow again, very low demand for items in the market. Playing the economy has become very difficult, one has to combine selling goods and ressources skillfully to make a worthwile profit. | | The economy is definitely stabilizing; but that is not to say that things are yet perfect. Either way I enjoy how this economy works and would rather it not change too drastically. | We should be able to delete our own posts. I see mods do it all the time to their own posts.
Tell me which post needs to be deleted and I'll do it for you. | | Nah, nothing really needs to be deleted. I was just regretting typing so much with so little sleep but I don't actually care that much :) | | I quite enjoyed your post comparing Defender Shields to Microsoft. It brought a smile to my face. | | lol I'm glad someone enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed typing it out at the time. Also glad it made an inkling of sense to someone else ^^; | | I would say time isn't an issue really if you go on and enroll for work taking 2hrs( or even 1 ) and you do this 5-8 times a day it takes all of 30 seconds so 5-10 minutes a day is 1000-2000gold and you don't even really have to play untill your gold is acceptable, that's the simple remedy for poverty. | | Ah, but the idea is to appeal to all the players equally; and that will have to include those that actually aren't around a computer that often... and those who are but are _really_ that lazy. | nice to see you've been keeping busy ips, and I like your Microsoft>defender shield thing too(and I can see why you did it also, or is that because I'm in a sleep deprived state also?lol), just hope you can find out why you can't get on the clan form, anyway on topic,
I personally haven't seen to many probs with the economy of the game, ya their is the faults here and their but nothing is ever perfect(and now for my famous line "What is Perfect?") and it seems like their is a solution to the problems that I ran into(mostly better planing), but the biggest problem seems to come from self inflicted pain/problems.
the Labor guild Lv, most people I see that complain have a low Labor Lv(Lv0 to just 1 believe it or not), thus making them have low gold income(vary low).
another self inflicted thing I see is bad spending(biggest one I have for a some time{real and here}) people just don't seem to spend wisely so they think they are always running out of gold and of course what do they do, complain that the game is unfair, and we all get a headache.
yes their are problems but that's just life, and not everything can be(ex: internet) or should be fix(ex: ok I can't think of one), overall I think if players can plan a little better, lots of the problems would disappear or at lest not be such a big deal, but like life... we have people that... well I can't think of the right world but I hope you get my meaning. | for PheonixHunter:
You're right in that players often spend their gold poorly; but the fact is that there really are very few gold sinks in this game. Gold comes in slowly but it's really difficult to lose your gold if you understand that Roulette is not a secure way to make money. In the end not having enough gold is from players not spending wisely. If they want to spend their gold repairing their own items to earn Smithing points or to buy enchantments to get their Enchanter's guild up, that's great. I just don't like seeing someone with Smithing 1 and LG 2 complaining about their lack of gold. That's a losing combination there..
Though I get what you're saying and you're pretty much right there. It all comes down to spending habits, some of which can reflect real-life money handling. | it is stupid if you try to earn your wealth from roulette. yes, you might be lucky enough for a few time; but you wont always lucky.
for me, roulette was like a bonus, i might bet some when i feel like to. on most of time, i gave some evil tips to some victims (*pointing at someone).
you shouldnt have problem if you always enroll job to get stable income.
well, invest on smith or enchanter guild are different story. if you start doing that, make sure you have enough gold to back you up.
else, you shouldnt start any smith or enchanter. it can kill your treasury very fast, i m a smith victim too EVEN i had LG5
so, those with LG 1-2 should shut up, stop smith and enchanter job if you cant afford BUT not complain here on lack of gold:) | | Have to agree with Pang. The moment you start using that blacksmith you've built in your castle you loose any right to complain on lack of gold. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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