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| Author | Apparitions vs Ghost |
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and they'll do it for their xbow/bowmen
That's not the point! Karsot said Necros can't cast bless and I just pointed out Elf/Night teammate can do it. It doesn't mean they will; the point is that it isn't impossible for an apparition to have been casted with bless. | +21
and there are 2 factions, that can possibly cast bless on apparitions vs. only one that could possibly cast curse }
(because necros will hardly cast it on themselves) | and there are 2 factions, that can possibly cast bless on apparitions vs. only one that could possibly cast curse
necros+DE for curse, knights+elfs for bless.
it's 2VS2, not 2VS1.
because necros will hardly cast it on themselves
of course, they will not target their own creatures.
but if you fight a necro, he can cast curse on your creatures. being a necro don't prevent from fighting against other necros.
when i wrote it, i was thinking about neutral creatures.
in merc quests for exemple.
in some of them you will be cursed by genies (army of wizards, wizards invaders, wizards brigands...)
but you will never be blessed (as aRU said, in team battles your teammates will cast bless on their x-bows, not on your ghosts or apparitions)
damages of apparitions are at least equals to damages of ghosts, and in some situations, they deals more damages.
i don't understant why you are complaining about reduced damages. 4-6 is not lower than 3-7. | because necros will hardly cast it on themselves
Necros can't cast it on themselves even if they wanted to as it won't be allowed by the game. :P | more words are obviously needed to explain what i was about.
4-6 is better than 3-7
no it's absolutely equal. leave the curse and bless magic, casted on ghosts/apparitions aside. not only because we would face some difficulties if we try to remember the last time we saw this happening to them.
and who'd be this... let's say inexperienced instead of stupid DE, that would cast curse in this case, and miss the chance to extinguish them with a magic arrow?
the same goes to a necro, who casts curse on enemy's ghosts/apps instead of raising own stack (you can try to imagine it, i tried... nothing happens).
so, it turns out, that the probability for this units to be cursed is even lower than to be blessed.
everybody wants his units to be a bit stronger. the point is that if we stop rummaging in the details but take a look at the big picture, we'll sooner or later come to the conclusion, that this game may have some weak spots but faction balance is definitely not one of them. | To Dan panic and 19 I think
First you can use drain mana from demon (cave demon).
Second, 19 says all this wolfhounds and some other stuff get more hp.
Well wolves really don't get more hp. Just more attack. | Apparition's hp makes it worth it small max dmg downgrade. Think about it, the hp is pretty good for an incorporeal creature.
Sure you can get 61 swordsmen/guardians but apparitions (with enuf retal piles) coupled with their higher initiative and incorporeal can deal a lot of dmg. | and there are 2 factions, that can possibly cast bless on apparitions vs. only one that could possibly cast curse }
dont u count demon?
That's not the point! Karsot said Necros can't cast bless and I just pointed out Elf/Night teammate can do it. It doesn't mean they will; the point is that it isn't impossible for an apparition to have been casted with bless.
it means that u'll never get ur apparition blessed by other person
let's say inexperienced instead of stupid DE, that would cast curse in this case, and miss the chance to extinguish them with a magic arrow?
lvl 8+ might DE only have 1 pt on knowledge and no sp, so will they do magic arrow rather than curse?
Apparition's hp makes it worth it small max dmg downgrade
and small min dmg upgrade. i think its become equal | | long live the philosophy... | | Topic moved from "Queries and help" to "General game forum". | i will try to list the situations where you can be cursed or blessed.
bless:
let's say inexperienced instead of stupid knight or elf, blessing apparitions instead of bows.
curse:
wizards (with random darkness spells of genies), might DE, might demon, merc quests (genies again).
you can be blessed only in team groupe battles, by your teammates, and only if they plays badly.
you can be cursed in group battles, EOFO, duels, quests.
i think for 1 time your apparitions are blessed, they are cursed at least 20 times.
i'm not necro, i'm DE, but i have got a lot of curses on my rogues or my lizards, and they have never been blessed.
as i said before: 4-6 is not lower than 3-7, it's at least equal.
4-6 is an upgrade (tiny upgrade, but still an upgrade), because you have the same damages, but you are more resistant to curse spell.
and i think it's normal that apparitions don't deals stronger damages.
look at the HP:
wolfhounds to cerberi: 15 HP instead of 15, +0% HP
tammed minotaurs to minotaur soldiers: 35 HP instead of 31, +12.9% HP
golems to modern golems: 24 HP instead of 18, +33.3% HP
elven bowmen to grand master bowmen: 14 HP instead of 10, +40% HP
orcs to chief orcs: 18 HP instead of 12, +50% HP
swordsmen to guardians: 26 HP instead of 16, +62.5% HP
ghosts to apparitions: 19 HP instead of 8, +137.5% HP
ghosts to apparitions is the better tier 3 upgrade of the game if we consider HP. their HP upgrade is more than 2* better than the best upgrade of others factions.
if you have better HP upgrade than other faction, it's normal to have less other upgrades like damages. otherwise the game wouldn't be balanced. | Well first how do you quote?
Second, adding aRU:
let's say inexperienced instead of stupid DE, that would cast curse in this case, and miss the chance to extinguish them with a magic arrow?
lvl 8+ might DE only have 1 pt on knowledge and no sp, so will they do magic arrow rather than curse?
Even if they had like 15 sp, they would still put the arrow/lightening somewhere else, beacuse the appariations now have too much hp for spells to be effective | I fail to see the problem an necro can have with the upgrade...
The Apparition got insanly much higher HP. 237,5% of an ghost.
To anyone that bases his dmg on distance, this as alot harder to handle then higher dmg. Its also makes them a better target for the "raise dead" spell, higher dmg would change non of that.
And finaly, they doesnt, in real life, make less dmg. It has the same average dmg as an ghost. And they got the possibility to drain mana, even if the opertunity doesnt show every time.
In short, Apparitions is alot better then ghosts. There are alot of other tier 3 creatures that would get insanly overpowered with such an enhancement as the one the necro gets (An golem would get 40+ HPs, not to mention mino's 70+ hps :p ). | | This is really a funny complaint. If you wish every factor of Apparition is better than ghosts, then knights will yell out "why cannot our crossbowman do volley and why does the initiative of our crossbowman drop 1?" | Its also makes them a better target for the "raise dead" spell,
Definitly not
The more hp a stack has the less usefull is raise dead. Aggreed 19hp on a single ghost is better for raise dead, cause you wont drop so fast in hp like ghosts 8 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 but on the other hand what use is it for me to raise the apparations, if I get like 10 back instead of 25 ghosts.
Sure the ghosts have low hp but at least that makes the raise dead spell usefull.
An increase in hp is the worst possible uppgrade an undead unit can get as long as you still want to "raise the dead". If you play might build with low mana and without the intention of raising dead it might be ok.
And pls don't calculate % of increased hp, the only thing that counts is +hp*stacksize best lvl 3 unit upgrade is surely the guardian.
With +10hp (only 1 less then apparations), +1max dmg, +1 attack and +1 def together with the stack size of probably 60, thats about double the increase in hp from ghosts to apparations. | An increase in hp is the worst possible uppgrade an undead unit can get as long as you still want to "raise the dead"
yes, Rise dead spell becomes uneffective
BUT
if we talk about group battles
The "Rise dead" spell becomes uneffective itself from 8th level till 10th level. Size of the army increases so that spell cannot raise the significant part of it. And also rised stack often get killed before it actually receives the turn.
From 8th level till 10th level battle hero builds or poisoning builds are more effective than nature magic builds.
So what i wanted to say: uneffectivenes of apparitions for rise dead spell is insignificant :) | Thats the point isn't it, as a poisoner-build with 12-14 sp i could ressurect 300-330hp even without nature build. Thats more than enough for 8hp ghosts but totaly unsufficient for 19hp apparitions.
So basicly the huge hp increase reduces the effectiveness of raise dead further, but actually i thought this spell as a defining component of being a nec. | as a poisoner-build with 12-14 sp i could ressurect 300-330hp even without nature build
as a poisoner you must cast poison, not the raise dead :) Only maybe in the end of battle... or against "unpoisonable" enemy.
but actually i thought this spell as a defining component of being a nec
this spell as a defining component of being a nec till 8th level :) From level 8 the defining talents are Vitality and Dominion of pain :) | well, well, see where this dispute took path :}
but gentlemen, let me answer to Karsot, who still doesn't understand what we were exactly discussing.
so, dear debater, you say "and if some master genies cast exactly curse... and if this... and if that..."
and if your power supply or inet connection get cut, then there will be no apparitions and no curses :} the chance is nearly the same.
it's not that important what type of magic is half percent more likely to be cast on these units. i agree i missed the demons, but if i start to dig in a meaningless details like the fact that registered necros + de + demons are still less than knights + elves, we won't get anywhere.
you are telling me, that a ghost stack might(!) get cursed to get it's damage reduced. someone even said "but if some hero with +1 knowledge casts curse..." tra-la-la. and how effective would that curse be then?
what you forget is that these same ghosts have access to +30% luck on level 4 already. and you are going to curse them with +1 knowledge? lol. they'd be crushed... (and don't tell me "oh yes, but the curse would reduce their lucky dmg too". pls, read carefully where the point is before using this argument).
we were discussing what is better 3-7 dmg or 4-6, and curse or bless are just not a considerable factor here. you are even coming step-by-step to this conclusion by yourself --> as i said before: 4-6 is not lower than 3-7, it's at least equal.
4-6 is an upgrade (tiny upgrade, but still an upgrade)
this is right, only the reason is wrong :} let me suggest you another direction:
3-7 is a wider variable than 4-6. what this means? hopefully most players make some calculations before they strike. they know the attack of their own stack, they can see the defence of the enemy stack, but they could only assume the possible dmg triggered. having that in mind, they can calculate more precisely the possible dmg done with apparitions than with ghosts. this is very useful in pvp battles, where you just NEED to know if you will vanish the entire enemy stack or not - leaving this way one or two units, that can be used next turn to take retaliation or to block the path of a large creatures for example. i you ask me, i'd gladly give 2hp from my apparitions health for 5-5 possible dmg...
and why some people still keep comparing the attributes of the single creatures. necros don't fight with their ghosts only. any faction's units are pretty much related to each other. the "big picture", remember?
the factions could hardly be more balanced. just look at the results of the 9 different tournaments in .ru and save your time from complaining/comparing. | I have never complained about the balance of faction ... and you know what up until now my ghosts have maybe been curesed once or twice in the entire game, while they have been blessed far more often maybe up to 10 times.
But of course I agree that less variation is better. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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