| Author | I think dominion of fire needs a nerf! |
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And i am not talking for the benefit of defense based factions only, it can be a really brutal debuff for just about anyone. There is hardly any strategy involved in that sort of gameplay where everything becomes killable in one hit. First hit and its over!
I know it has been said many times but i really sympathize with factions and classes that have to play against it.
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=869787195
Watch this battle and tell me if there is any single conventional build without dom of fire that would have been able to so easily overcome the opponents. I know its forbidden to ask nerfs/buffs in I&S but if majority of you agree then it should be heard. At least that is what i can hope. |
nothing broken can be shown from the given battle, in fact change the dof to a traditional magic de build, the opponent will have even less chance.
it just shows how bad the pace can be when a charging alt elf teamed up with a defensive alt de. |
I think anything like this has to be balanced against what the numbers say in terms of wins.
I happened to look through CG ratings for the last 2 months for CL16 for all classes yesterday using this http://lgnd.ru/gt/rating
battlewise wiz generally did ok, but there was not what seemed like a dominant pattern (obviously not all were DoF and it was only a crude look at overall lie of numbers. Some factions stood out more than others - it is clear that some builds are preffered for CG and some factions do better on average (no surprises on that really lets be honest)
But not enough for me to think it is nerf worthy. Certainly in certain battles it makes a hhuge difference, but that is true of many builds - like tribal spirit in certain situations. I just think it all works out in the end |
While I agree that dof needs change, I don't think that battle particularly proves the point.
I believe its effectiveness should depend on factors such as your own CL, enemy's CL, and total defence of enemy creature. But then it won't really be dof anymore.
The point is, on average dof users don't outperform other builds considerably, but they are really strong against some factions, and really weak against some.
I mean a duel between this wiz and a decent charmer, bw, barb, etc. and it would be very one sided. If you want group battles then CL would come into play. Obviously if it's a lev 10 with dof facing a might lev 21, dof would be way too op.
The biggest problem this battle wasn't dof however, it was as bad pairing. A fast charmer who just rushes and die, and a slow tde who can be focused by both you and de once ce's main stacks are heavily reduced. |
nothing broken can be shown from the given battle, in fact change the dof to a traditional magic de build, the opponent will have even less chance.
its just one of the many battles where i felt that and i do tend to see a lot of dom of fire users. Even when its on the enemy side and we win, there is just something about it that always feels broken to me. Like it really forces your moves even in some cases where it doesn't lead to immediate death. I don't know maybe i am biased to believe it. |
for virtual_vitrea:
most of time a chain lightning forces your moves harder :)
in some given pairs dof do be quite strong, or broken. for example the famous dwarf+alt wiz couple in paired tour, fireball+slow but steady shooters=point eliminator, plus dwarf provides great protection against rushers. |
The point is, on average dof users don't outperform other builds considerably, but they are really strong against some factions, and really weak against some
true. what was the faction that win the most MT/mixed tourney again? no rant for nerf against them. DOF is not unbeatable, it just annoying to deal with. |
Another factor is that apparent strength of a faction/ability can be biased by the character builds of those that use them
Battlewise wizards in a CG with DOF pretty much always can provide some benefit to the battle with their fire irrespective of level. BW are also flimsy and break pretty easily. Consequently they are relatively easy to focus and wipe out or significantly reduce. They have limited scope for removing retal - so often rely on one hitting enemies or doing sufficient damage that they absorb the retaliation without too much cost
IF one has a good character build and high FL - then this makes you extra strong, without it, you just die (I know this as am only just getting to the stage where I am not tissue paper all the time). Similarly if you look at DD the oft spoken about nemesis of group battles - they are very powerful with high end good characters. You remove a FL and a bit of character build quality and they are very average and beatable. Similarly for yourself VV, fury barbs generally do well in the hands of well developed and skillful players. Remove that and they become quite average.
This is the difficulty with assessing consistently and reliably any build/skill/faction from battle experience as one cannot easily remove judgements from other factors such as skill level and character build.
While in principle I like the idea (in terms of fairness) of having skills that show some variation across combat level - in practical terms there is a normalising influence. While a level 10 with DoF can remove by 50% the defence of a level 22 player - they can also be killed very very easily by them.
I think ultimately balance is better achieved by simpler understandable mechanisms over anything complicated |
nothing broken can be shown from the given battle, in fact change the dof to a traditional magic de build, the opponent will have even less chance.
its just one of the many battles where i felt that and i do tend to see a lot of dom of fire users. Even when its on the enemy side and we win, there is just something about it that always feels broken to me. Like it really forces your moves even in some cases where it doesn't lead to immediate death. I don't know maybe i am biased to believe it. |
You killed the elf quickly without the dominion. It wasn't needed and was just cherry on the top with the dark elf using unfit tactics (charging with fired lizards just to be killed by orc on melee, maybe nerf orcs melee instead? :p).
In practice the only counter to your team (strong range and magic) could have been a team of rusher and not taking time as TDE usually do going invisible and casting while the elf dies. |
| Yeah if the lev 16 was ce it wouldn't be so easy for sure. As mentioned, bad combo having ce + tde. Or at least they didn't coordinate well. |
I will also add that as BW I regularly play without dominion of fire and do not feel terribly helpless against others dof BW. Even with builds that I consider inferior (like full might BW) I had close battles, I think I won some (that was a while ago).
What often confuse people is that yes the fireball increase the damage output a lot through defense reduction, but a good deal potential damage is lost by using fireball instead of stronger spells, so out of the extra 500 damage you dealt with your troops, maybe that a meteor shower would have inflicted 400 more damage (right now, and it cost a talent to do that while damage output could be increased further with another destruction/erudition or wathever). This is even more true talking about your magic DE with elemental call.
Saying that it can't be countered is also a common mistake... In that reguard a basic destruction leaves even less room to counter it as it can target any stack and kill it instantly. Fireball commonly leaves time to react on the other hand. |
I think DoF gives an interesting twist to the battles - certainly gives the enemy the fear factor to commit which you can try and use to your advantage.
Nice cat and mouse match up in touney just now illustrates this
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=869848459
This sort of thing makes the game interesting and I would hate to lose it. |
13# I dont know if DoF is OP.
... But I admit there was nothing he (The Knight) could do there.
He could offer no "Counterplay" to that, and anything that gives no possibility of "Countering"... Isnt too good, Idk. |
| for Ipsen:I disagree, he could have beaten me for sure - guards without DoF would have eaten a lot of me. Instead the fear of Dof and genies meant he didn;t commit his guardians when he should have. He had 5 morale for a chunk of the battle - this makes morale predictable - add in inspire from his hero and he could have timed a charge when I had put Dof elsewhere. He also targetted genies who were only threatening damage but not doing any instead of my shooters who were, losing his ranged advantage. He also had a stat advantage on me. |
He gave away his angels and cav easily without taking anything in the process. He probably thought he could backup the griffins with guards but MilesTeg tricked him with the gargoyles.
With 3 stacks out of the picture at the expense of just 70 gremlins, he clearly got tricked and had pretty much lost by then. |
Well i am with virtual ...
It requires a debuff like in CG even a 10 level dominion of fire mage can rekt a higher level player and hence its just like so OP!!
So i think instead of 2% per spell power it should be 1% that will be good :D |
| I see your point guys but what i am saying is that the build gives too much guarantee of a win in a number of cases which makes the other side helpless. I am in agreement that it can be beaten but the other times, its too big of an advantage to have. |
| Maybe they should change it to 'if targeted player is higher than caster, the effect gets reduced by 5% per level difference.' This way when a level 10 would cast it upon a level 20 the effect would get reduced by 50% and would make it more realistic. |
for Lawton:
I think that idea has merits - this is where I think it is unfair since a low level can have a significant impact on the game. The fact that a level 20 could wipe out a level 10 very easily doesn;t change the fact that it could enable a lot of damage to be done as a result of the 1 turn lets say they are alive for. Reducing their impact only on combat level differences, and only significantly when they are sizeable makes some sense.
How they would code this may be more tricky. It could alternatively be that magic resistance actually worked on the % armour reduction. At least then you could protect yourself. All it currently takes is 1% pierce and all fire resistance is penetrated, that doesn;t really make sense to me. |
