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| Author | Interesting faction statistics |
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Many people tell elves are too strong. I agree with this general "feeling" and made some search on how to highlight the issue.
Beyond game faction numbers, the top 100 player list allows a new set of statistics. The top 100 is more interesting because we have real players here, not beginners trying a couple game and quit.
Here is the list:
- Elves 23.3% of all players, 39% of top 100 players
- Necromancers 17.6% of all players, 16% of top 100 players
- Knights 16.6% of all players, 15% of top 100 players
- Dark elves 15.4% of all players, 10% of top 100 players
- Wizards 10.4% of all players, 5% of top 100 players
- Barbarians 9.7% of all players, 8% of top 100 players
- Demons 7.1% of all players, 6% of top 100 players
Barbarians and Demons have clearly some problems getting to the top. But with 39% of players, Elves are more than twice more frequent in top 100 players than the next faction. | Some people may claim that it means nothing or that this faction was more interesting to people; I beg to disagree. I believe so many elves are in the top 100 for a reason - they earn more experience and have a higher win to loss ratio than any other race and thus gain levels more often.
In other words, they are stronger. | | Elsewhere, the game designer implied that this lack of balance was possible, when telling that all the creatures of a given faction should be compared "as a whole". | This is an issue, since some factions are weaker than others at a given level. If stronger creatures of a faction belong to the higher levels, players of this faction will have a weaker win to loss ratio until high levels. It's all too possible that some units like Druids are overpowered.
Balance should not be between all creatures of a faction but between all creatures of a given level. | | PS: sorry for the multi-part message but I had to overcome the language filter. | | 4 thumbs up for these findings. Lots of people have resign to the fact of : if you can't beat the elves, join the elves... | | changing faction to high levels is hard... | bigtime thumbs up also... past level 5, battles are often defined almost entirely by how many elves are present, and which side the elves are on. not necessarily deciding the winner in each battle, but they certainly set the tone and speed of the fights.
put simply, the desire of all none elves to have elves on their team is far too strong. this must outline the fact which most feel to be present - that elves are uber scary! :p.
it is also true in my opinion, that demons are relatively under powered, as are barbarians. that said, i dont think that they need to be powered upward, because the relative problem is slight - and i think played strategically, barbarians can be among the most scary of all factions, with those wolf raiders about the most damaging stack i know of. demon's spawns alone are reason enough for most spell casters to fear them, also. so, while factions arent equal, i dont think they need to be, or ever should be, that would be bland.
i dont take issue with the fact that the elven race will perhaps always be dominant on a ranged basis - and i also dont mind that they will perhaps be more played and slightly stronger than other factions. however, with the bowmen as the rightful ranged gods, to have another ranged / spell casting power house, which come in decent numbers AND have an amazing amount of hit points, i think it is a little. funky. by all means keep elves as the big hitters, but i think druids should have 1 of the following 3 changes applied.
1). HP down to around 20-25, so they are at least fallable to some kind of none melee damage.
2). recruit numbers down by 2 across all levels.
3). their offensive prowess somehow similarly neutered by around 30%.
i know it is the nature of the beast to complain about every faction that oneself doesnt play. and i am aware this kind of moan isnt viewed favourably by many people around here... but the sheer prevalence of this particular moan, back up with hard stats as above, should hint that this isnt mere nature of the beast griping - and i dont think most people want to see elves dethroned as the favoured faction, just somewhat reigned in. | Hogwash, all of it,
so elves have it easier on lvl 5 to 8, that is not even due to their super units, but simply because they have 2 ranged units.
knights will be superior on the lvl 8 range, then they get monks, 54 hp ranged units (and an upgrade to their lvl 2 bowman), so, in lets say, a month or 2 everyone will want to nerf knights?
the only deciding factor in groupbattles are the ammount of ranged units backed up with melee, and then barbarians actually shine (and i rather have a barb on my side than an elf).
the elves have their glory hour, but well, would you swap your lvl 5 critter for unicorns? I think no one will do that.
stop whining, some have it easier on some levels, live with it | as i said, its not a case of every unit being a carbon copy in value or use to every other. i accept griffs arent great, but then swordsmen often are. and i also know peasants arent really comparable to imps, but again, cavalry units are bangin.
there needs to be some variety, and some element of 1 race being better at 1 level, than another. YES, at each new level, the balance of power should and does shift, this is good and right. it is merely the size of the differenc which i take issue with.
clearly, if humans got a unit called a "pwn" at lvl 7, and they had 10000 hit points, that would be a problem. it wouldnt be LESS of a problem if at level 9, barbarians got a units called "pwned" with 2 million hit points. clearly, it is POSSIBLE that a problem can arise with inter level balance on a local basis (and the future cannot always be used as a valid solution), the question is, do elves in the lvl 5-6 range cross over this line of being too competitive on a local basis? and if you want to address it, are they compartively too weak, in the lvl 7+ range, due to unicorns? i dont know, aint got there yet. if i find there to be a problem of significant enough size, then i would speak on it.
to clarify, this isnt a moan. this is a fair question of balance, and i am more than happy to hear some counter argument, preferably backed up with some kinda statistical facts, instead of simply dismissing this thread as hogwish, and telling every1 they need to "stop whining and live with it". | http://www.heroeswm.com/army_info.php?name=unicorn
I feel unicorn will be gay too....
7 speed and 12 initiative (adding more initative cos of elf base stats)
and aura of magic proof giving adj units 30% magic resist.... which is even better than barbarians racial skill.... | wow big words lol its true what is said though people would complain in the favor of their faction so that their favored faction will reach the top but instead of choosing sides argue logically. when i was elf i had troubled time winning but then again i was only lvl 4 so i have not yet experienced druids but they seem powerful though i cannot judge them...
I say wait till you can compare all units of the faction to see where the unbalanced factors are...
...XD | | Personally, I just chose to switch to Elf. Life is much easier now. | Their have been alot of discussions about the elfs, thats ok. But to demand a nurf to this race is kinda lame. You all know the balance was finetuned years ago with the creation of the original heroes series on PC and NOT in this browser game. The balance is like 10 years old and is superiour to any other strategy game I know.
As elf I give you this tipp to beat em, but *psshhh* dont tell ;)
- Trivial: Kill of bowmen first, cause they shoot twice. Add heroes magic. Dont leave ANY single bowmen alive, cause they WILL trouble you in late game.
- Ignore Druids. Period. They pump out 2 lightnings before you down them, and thats it. Their range damage is not kinda dangerous and they ONLY have like 4 ranges shots until they become totally useless. Too much HP too. Kill last.
- DONT EVER let the forrest keeper hit you first. They do serious damage and they are fast, so just range or rogue or magic or single ret them.
- Important: Watch where the druids cast their stoneskin too, and dont attack that unit until it wears of, 9 defense will cost you too much DPS loss. | In addition to my last post:
Of course DUELS could become unbalanced on some levels, because some races get their ranged units BEFORE other races. So, DONT player duels on certain levels again certain races and DONT complain about it, its only natural. Play 3v3 and its almost fair play. | weeks ago .. i was probably the chairman bash-the-gamedesigner-for-imbalance thingy. But I guess there's one very powerful feature that a lot of ppl overlook to add to the balance of the game . IN fact i should kudos the game designer for adding. It's call the faction skill...
the more powerful a single race is.. the easier is it for you to get faction point at that race. So elves are too poweful? easy.... switch ur race to elf. fight to Skill faction lvl 3. Then switch back to whatever race u want. Taddaa... now u have extra defense against the uber-elves. Theoretically easy.... but I'm too lazy to do it.. haha | | Y'know Halbarus - who, ironically, plays Elf - if victory was so easy to achieve Elves would not be 39% of top 100 players. It's not like they're beginners from level 4 on. | | Nearly the fastest initative in all the units and free +1 luck from their building adds to the danger gay part. | halbarus, this game was balanced in the heroes series? what? thats a pretty crazy thing to say, considering this game really bears so little relation in units / stats etc. the unit names are similar, and the concept is retained, but gameplay is streets apart. i played the original series games 1-4, completed them all, many times (tho didnt play any games in the franchise after this point). fave series on the PC, ever. im now 25, a company director, etc etc. i dont play games on my PC anymore, but i have fond memories. so i found this game for the first time about 20 days ago, and i simply speak as i find. there are many small balance issues that i could pick at, but i dont. small "balance" issues are necessary to give variety, i know this. and i am fine with it. but as i keep saying, it is the rather larger issues which i find less easy to take.
as for your other points
kill elf bowman first. of course - i have never seen any1 do anything else tbh.
ditto to ignoring druids - nothing can kill them quick enuf to be worthwhile, so people leave them. indeed, they are 90% used as brick walls to save elves, thats how strong they are in defence (i know there are other reasons to split the druid stacks also).
dont hit units with stone skin. yeah. dude, you arent talking to kids griping that their stack of 2 farmers keeps losing to a stack of 10 druids, we all know the basics, and we all (many at least) take issue with the balance between the races in this game, or rather, 1 of the races in this game.
in your other post u basically say that duels vs elves are imbalanced, but that 3 on 3 is ALMOST fair? and u site this as an example of things being as they should be?
imagine my amazement to see that you are playing as an elf. *shocked.
just as Kotrin was annoyed by the elf dominance, and has now switched, i think many will / have. even tho he loses his racial skill that he had built up, and presumably his buildings too, AND his stats become ill fitting to his new race (thus creating more cost in potions to re assign), he STILL finds the swap to be valid. this isnt a good sign for anything near to balance. especially as i believe dark elves to be in the upper echelons of the races around level 5.
many people say that it is purely localised to the level 3-7 range that elves reign supreme... well, comparing battles with the level 8s in the game (the elf and the necro), i know which looks best from here. those elite FKs are crazilly powerful if used wisely, as any lvl 8 player would, and unics are certainly not as weak as some might say - specially when compared to the undead equiv. and lets not forget, undead is widely regarded as the 2nd best race, behind elves.
a long way behind, from what i see...
but i dont think necros need boosting. they are strong enough, they compare well with other races, even tho necros have many issues - such as ghosts being spell targets and vamps having bobbins hp. these points have good counter balances, of course.
elves however, i still feel are a little too far ahead. and yet i still dont wish them to be horrifically pulled back - im not trying to change the world here, or ruin the game for the established elves, nor would i ask for anything to directly help necros (which i play). i speak as a wise person (i hope) and long term fan of the game, not out of self interest, but out of love for the brand.
i also think that it is amazing that there is only 1 real gripe about imbalance. to create SUCH varied races with entirely different ways to play each one, and yet have most of them so close in popularity / battle viability, i think it is quite commendable. but none of us should be too proud to listen to the thoughts of so many other players. | well said specter.......
I remember mentioning in another post about the problem of heroeswm is not in the lack of balance... in fact, to achieve total balance is arguably impossible unless it's mirror units like Chess. However, the thing about this game that are unlike many games is completely in the lack of WORK-AROUND strats. U can have an slightly imbalance feature... as long as there are workaround on it. As for now, There is currently 0 workaround vs elf, in other words, you can have as many combinations of strategy, u'll never win a 3v3 if the other side is all elves and one side have none. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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